alright, so i'll have to buy a hat to eat... but i'll still eat one.

if the FST's religious community can refute the following 50 proofs with reasonable arguments i will buy a hat and videotape myself eating it. i will then post it on youtube for all of you to see and place it in a response to this thread.

i'm not saying that you have to provethe arguments wrong, you just have to come up with logical counterarguments

Here they are

yes, i realize that these are mostly targeted at christianity, i'm using this resource because the majority of the religious users on ATS are christians in some form or another.

Deleted post as it was a 1-line personal attack and contained nothing 'on topic'.

[edit on 22/6/07 by masqua]

Very interesting find, MIMS. I intend to go through those tonight after the kids are in bed.

I really don't think you have to worry about buying, then eating, a hat.

THO's response is pretty standard for certain types of theists with their backs in the corner. Resort to name calling and personal slurs when they can't think of anything else to say.

It would be an interesting debate with theists who are NOT going to just sling mud around and say nasty things. I'm always up for an interesting difference of opinion. Just not a nasty, senseless one.

I agree with you MM, you just got to replace the word "theist" in your post with atheists.

[edit on 22-6-2007 by thehumbleone]

Nice post Madnessinmysoul.



Personally attacking a poster does not make a debate, and doing so normally involves the attacker being seen as the 'pathetic individual'.
Honestly could you actually post a refutation, rather than attacking anyone with beliefs that don't fit into your mindset.



Note: I have only resorted to 'name calling' to tear-to-shreads your mudslinging 'assault' on Madnessinmysoul. Also I'm finding it quite hard to find evidence of 'atheist' attacks on 'theist' posters.



Well I believe that it's largely because the main 'source' for their arguments is the Bible, which's factual accuracy leaves a lot to be decided.

Really?!?!?!



Nah it's funner that way, plus Madness is full of # and he knows it.

Who's gonna judge whether or not someone provides a reasonable argument? madness? Don't even make me laugh. We all know that he's right and everyone else is wrong.

Besides I don't see the reason for confuting that website, it won't make a difference to people like you.

Ah, you poor lost souls.





[edit on 22-6-2007 by thehumbleone]

I suggest that you DO NOT attack anyone personally and rather attack the topic of the thread instead.

Carry on...

Exactly.

Madness has offered a real proposition to all readers for the purpose of validitity.

I may have suggested in the past that I was 'theist', but I want to officially clarrify at this point in here that I am 'deist' and spiritual in nature, and am open for healthy intelligent discussions with others.

Also, as well as the fact that I've said before in other threads, 'I recognize and respect' madness's viewpoints and want to explore his standpoints in a 'civil' respect.

Can we choose the hat?



lol

[edit on 6/22/2007 by kinglizard]

Madness?

I hope that you will one day not have MADDNESS IN YOUR SOUL.

I see that we ALL are striving towards the TRUTH.

I wanted to address your 'nick-name' in the hopes of YOU finding solace or purhaps even recognition with your journey.

Every man, every person yearns for closure. Yearns for MEANING. I don't think that a single person on this earth can provide a 'REQUIEM for your song', But, many will provide safe havens for your sailing ship.

Remember tho: "A ship in the harbour is safe, but that's NOT what ships are built for."

Here is my song I presented to you in the past again:

Sleeping with the enemy

I would one day LOVE to see you NOT HAVE maddness in your soul my friend.

Why when there is no sincerity? I would if I had the time, but you would have to exicute some sincerity. You souls dont realize how much God loves your souls.

Look at Dogs un conditional love, God is in them creatures, hes given them a personality as a pet to humans.

I will always pray for you at mass madness.

Btw, if your athiest why is there madness in something that doesnt exist to you?

peace.

Believe me, when I say this:

There is SINCERITY.

You don't have to have a 'dog' involved to portray the act of human kindness.

The questions brought up are interesting. In all honesty there are not 50 ideas. Some of them are repeated ideas rephrased. (That's just me being picky.) I must admit that the questions propose some real challenges.

I do however have one puzzling question that this site can't explain? Why do I still believe even after being shown "proof"? Borrowing the author's favorite analogy, I used to believe in Santa Claus but as I matured I realized that it could not be true despite my parent's objections. I stopped believing even though I was given hard-core evidence. On Christmas morning the presents were there under the tree just as promised. I usually got quite a few of the things that I wished for. Still, I eventually grew to believe that despite the overwhelming evidence that it wasn't true.

Now back to Christianity. Why do people still believe even after being shown such overwhelming proof? What is the drive? The only conclusions are that your proof isn't logical enough or I have a mental disability that prohibits me from realizing your truth. Or is there a third option? Have we evolved with the need for a creator? Isn't that what really sets us apart from all other life forms? We are aware of our own mortality. No other species demonstrates anything close to the obsession that humans have for religion. Where does this need come from?

I think you're attacking the wrong source. You will need to find the root cause of this madness because people believed in a god long before Christianity or Islam. You can't merely play with the arrangement of Bible verses to dismiss religion.

That's exactly what keeps me coming back here. I wonder about this a lot: why do people cling to faith in the face of all reason? I think in large part it has to do with fear of death. The idea of an afterlife is very comforting.

For many I think it is fear of letting something go that they probably derive a great deal of their identity from. Many people define themselves as Christians (we aren't discussing any other religions here, the site is clearly refuting Christianity, so I think we should just stick to that topic), it is how they see themselves, and changing is scary and difficult to many people. Who will they be if they are no longer Christian? How will they find fellowship and tribal connectedness?



Surely there is: maybe we are right and there is no god, but you are not ready to let go of something you identify so strongly with. Perhaps (and there is no disrespect intended here, it's just the best way I can describe it) you are actually brainwashed by the weekly indoctrination sessions people call "church" and by the mutual delusion of others around you.

Christians don't like atheists. We are compared to murderers and rapists - right here on this site, even. People think we are somehow less than they are, and even downright evil, just because we don't believe in what is to us, the unbelievable. There is probably some part of the "brainwashing" that says that atheists are the lowest of the low. So giving up the mass identity as a Christian and becoming something that so many revile must be frightening, even if the fright is not conscious.



If I'm off-base here, I don't mean to be, but most Christians don't believe in evolution, so if you are one of those Christians, you can't have it both ways. If you are not, my apologies, but this point does apply to anyone reading who does NOT believe in evolution but were nodding in agreement with your argument.

I don't know where this need comes from, but I'm looking for an answer, and one of these days I'll find it. I knew I was an atheist a long time ago, but I am only just beginning to educate myself about what that really means, and answers to questions such as these. I grew up in a culture steeped in Judeo-Christian mythology and values, just like you did, so even though I don't believe, I still have a lot to learn about why I don't.



As I mentioned above, this post is just about that site, which is about Christianity. Christians reading this already don't believe in Islam, or the ancient gods, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster (RAmen ). So there is no need to discuss these things in this thread, just Christianity.

Delusions are funny things. Dawkins compares them to mind viruses, otherwise known as memes. They have an evolutionary life of their very own, and they tend to spread and are just as hard to kill as viruses. To me, MIMS, and other atheists on the board, we view peoples' tendency towards clinging fervently to religion in the light of all reason and logic to be much akin to having a flu in the brain.

And now, I have a headache from a flu of my body and I'm off to sleep.

[edit on 23-6-2007 by MajorMalfunction]

I appreciate the standpoint of atheists for many reasons:

When it all boils down to A FACT ALL atheists can agree to a certain fact: - All things tangible can be explained from tangible facts.

Untangible - needs physical/viable proof

Madnessinmysoul thanks for posting this thread I am making my way thou the reasons and so far I am enjoying the read. The concept of a higher power of course runs against the grain of logic but people are prepared to ignore this in favour of the comfort of having the unexplainable explained.

I must say I love it when there is a display of pure logic that debunks the belief in the concept of a higher power. The existence of an higher power is the biggest con job in the history of humanity.

[edit on 23-6-2007 by xpert11]

Neither side can be proven one way or the other...nobody can prove the existence or lack of of a god. I am sure a list of 50 could be created to prove the existence of a god. What one believes is just that...belief. Sometimes it is of the heart and sometimes of the mind...but it is still belief.

Personally, I like the idea of a spiritual search versus a religious search...to me there is too much 'us' versus 'them' in a lot of religions. I think one of the best quotes I have heard was from the movie 'The Kingdom of Heaven' where the main character states that he has lost his religion and the other guy states:
"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves and goodness. What God desires is here (points to the head) and here (points to the heart) and what you decide to do every day will make you a good man...or not."

I think I replayed that part of the movie many times...it is such a true quote to me. I do not believe that one is damned for not being on a certain side...I do not believe that fear should be preached in order to submit others...I do not believe that money is mandatory to be given...I do not believe dogma is any excuse for war...I do believe you can be religious and have no spirit...I do believe you can be spiritual and have no religion...I do believe you can have both or neither.

My personal belief is that 'all of this' is not an accident...so I believe in a God...can I prove it, no...all I can do is look around and try and fathom that this all just occurred by coincidence...I just can't do it and it would amaze me more if all of this just happened by chance versus there being a God.

I think there is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know" what truly does or does not exist...to me there is more wrong with one side of the argument being so ego oriented with their opinion that they cannot even try to see the other side's point of view or that a hatred or humiliating attitude comes out of it.

Lastly...I do believe in the heart and may we all find our way with it

For one thing, the Bible was not really meant to be taken literally, word-for-word.

Another thing you should realize is that the contents of the Bible are translated (& re-translated & edited & modified, etc, etc, ad nauseum) from three different ancient languages; Also consider that parable & hyperbole was used frequently in the Bible, because the original speakers needed to be able to describe "divine" concepts in a form of language that even the most simple people could understand.

Most of all, it must also be understood that the Bible is based upon the Dead Sea Scrolls, most of which were found in fragments & highly degraded from age & the conditions of the caves in which they were found...Which make translations extremely difficult in the first place.

Then you must also consider the history of the Dead Sea Scrolls themselves...They were not organized & codified in the manner that the Bible is today. Much of the original "scriptures" have been examined by the "authorities" in the Roman Catholic Church (Which contained elements of subversive conspiracies in the first place) & also determined which writings would be included or excluded from the published version of the Bible.

Finally, it must be noted that God Himself didn't take up quill & parchment in His own Hands to create the Bible (or the Dead Sea Scrolls either)...Who knows how many different human authors over a period of how many years/decades/generations had their hands in it? These authors were just as fallable as you & I...

So the main point of my "logical counterarguments" is that it would not only be impossible to take the Bible literally, word-for-word, but also it would be extremely stupid to do so, because the Bible was never written in a literal fashion in the first place.

In addressing some of the specific "proofs" listed at your link, here's my take on those points:
#1: Prayer is quite probably a method in which the person praying can focus his mind & thoughts on a specific goal...To aid in formulating an answer instead of "having it handed to him on a silver platter." If successful in working to achieve the results that were prayed for, then the prayer has been answered.
Also, it must be noticed that, with certain effort at researching paranormal abilities, that strong belief & conviction can have an effect in the physical world. Without belief at the core, nothing can become reality (ie: examples of telekinesis, "miraculous" cures, etc) have been documented. Without the power of belief in the mind, none of these things could have happened.
Granted, there's no "proof-positive, smoking gun evidence" that spiritualism & paranormal are the same thing, but there's enough legitimate documentation to indicate some kind of link at least.

#2: Well, analyzing prayer is what I just did in point #1, I just didn't do so using statistics.

#3:
Quite true. As the missionaries & crusaders found different people & religions, it made it so much easier to "convert" them if they could demonstrate that Christianity was a religion that encompassed the native religions...Especially if they could also explain that the "pagan" religion was merely an "incomplete & misunderstood" version of Christianity.
Another related point to consider: Consider the Ten Commandments. Basically, those Commandments were pretty much just a set of "rules of thumb" that, if taken to heart, represent a philosophy that would allow people to live in peace with one another...Common sense rules for civilized behavior.
For example, the 1st Commandment (in a nutshell) states: "Thou shalt worship no other gods before Me." In this simple sentence, God makes several admissions: First, He recognizes & confirms that other gods exist. Second, He declares that He doesn't really need worship to continue existing, but if you were to "worship" what God's "common sense rules" are telling you, then you can be at peace with yourself & your neighbors.

#4:
Not entirely true: Many scientists view their efforts at unraveling the secrets of the universe with the idea that they're trying to "understand God by understanding His Creation." Albert Einstein, for example, told an interviewer that his best thoughts came to him when he would start by asking himself, "If I were God, how would I have put the universe together." Einstien then found that, in a logical & orderly universe, then its Creator must also be logical & orderly; The Laws of Physics & the process of natural evolution all being part of an orderly universe.
----------------------------------------
Alright...Let me now officially point out that I have a strong Faith in the Divine...Just no faith in organized religions! I don't see the Creator as the sterotypical anthropomorphic entity, like many of those who have been deluded by the dogmatic tenants of organized religion.

So, must I go on with all fifty "proofs?" Or...where did you say you would post the video of you eating a hat?

What you and theists overlook is that Einstein did NOT mean god in the way that Christians and other religious people believe in god. He uses the word "god" in the pantheistic sense, as a synonym for nature. He is not talking about any person or being that created the universe, he is using allegory and the word "god" as convenient shorthand for "laws of nature" "laws of physics" etc.

It is not true he believed in any god of any religion. Theists always use Einstein as "proof" there is a god and it is disingenuous and misleading to state so, as well as putting words in the great man's mouth he did not intend.

Anyway, even if Einstein DID believe in god, it doesn't mean god exists.

While it is true that it cannot be proven conclusively whether there is or is not a god, the statistical probability of there NOT being a god is much greater than the probablitity that there IS a god.

The burden of proof is still upon the believers, and you cannot prove it. While atheists cannot prove there is not a god, using logic and reason we can come a lot closer to disproving the superstition than any theist can prove it.

Now that I'm awake and have had more coffee, here are some more quotes of Einstein's NOT taken out of context and twisted to fit a Christian agenda.

And, BTW, Einstein's cultural heritage was Jewish, so Christians using Einstein to prove the Christian god is ludicrous, in my opinion.










all from www.infidels.org...

Now, can everyone please stop trying to use Einstein to prove there is a god? It is insulting to one of the greatest scientists to ever live, and does him a great disservice, using him to attempt to prove something he absolutely and unequivocally did NOT believe in.


[edit: somehow my last sentence was truncated]

[edit on 23-6-2007 by MajorMalfunction]