Debunking false claims about Jehovah's Witnesses. 1-14

reply to post by miriam0566

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I have an explanation for you

denial disorder -
the refusal to acknowledge the existence or severity of unpleasant external realities or internal thoughts and feelings.

reply to post by miriam0566

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Hes right about angels not being demons. Why would God create something evil like that? Don't know, but God has used evil spirits before.



Angels, and demons are different things.



[edit on 22-6-2009 by dthwraith]

reply to post by Bigwhammy

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right... and that is exactly what all trinitarians do with PLAIN and COMMON SENSE words and phrases such as:

father
son
greater than
first born
beginning of ......

and countless of versus such as this one:

John 20:17 (New International Version)

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

Your explanation that Jesus' reason for quoting that Psalm was to confuse them, makes no sense!

Are you saying that Judges were not considered "gods" in the biblical Hebrew culture?

Was Moses called a "god"?

[edit on 22-6-2009 by holywar]

reply to post by holywar

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I already explained that Jesus was using his superior grasp to tangle up the Pharisee's just as he did when he asked about David. They were about to stone him. That's obvious...

Psalm 82 is about a Divine council of Angels that is referenced in Deuteronomy 32:8 in the ESV version. The ESV reflects this correction due to recent ancient language scholarship that cleared up the long held error "sons of Israel" and correctly renders it "sons of God" is angels.


It's not about pride or who wins an argument. Instead of just arguing just do a little research please.

It is explained in detail here : www.thedivinecouncil.com...

If you care about scripture this is the correct rendering according to the best semetic language scholars.

You really don't know enough about the subject to even discuss this. Its a basic concept in systematic theology. Angels are not demons. I'm not going to argue with you because this is a waste of time. Please do some study.

[edit on 6/22/2009 by Bigwhammy]

I think the thief was in Paradise with Jesus that very day, just like Jesus said. I am willing to bet your difficulty in "getting it" is you do not know what "paradise" means in the Bible.

Abraham's bosom in Hades which is where Jesus went. Before Christ was born, died and rose from the dead, those who trusted in God went to a place called Abraham's bosom. When Christ died the paradigm shifted, he went there, and took the believers to "paradise" in heaven. They will remain there until Christ returns to earth, and they with him.













[edit on 6/22/2009 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by Bigwhammy

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No you need to go study up, actually read the bible maybe?

You think God actually created evil Demons as they are today?

He created all spirit creatures good and as angels. They had free will just like us, some converted to demons when they rebelled against God.
This is such a simple concept.

Read your bible and learn about it.

Then come back, and we can talk then.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

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Angels can manifest bodies as in the case of the two in Sodom and Gomorrah. Demons can not manifest bodies which is why they begged Jesus to let them go into a heard of pigs. Fallen Angels are much more dangerous and powerful than simple demons. They rule the planet, for now...

It's not what's important here.

I am pretty certain a Fallen Angel is the source of inspiration for the Watchtower cult. The replacement theology and Arianism is obviously Satanic. It is not personal. But you are not in Christ. I don't hate you - I hate false teaching that is leading people to eternal Hell. You are in deep deception. I will pray for you to get saved and come out of the cult.

YouTube Link

I put in italics what I agree with, however fallen angels=demons.
Curious, tell me what's the difference between a fallen angel and demon in how they got to be in opposition to God? Angel rank, Time frame, actions, what is it?


[edit on 22-6-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

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By what you put in italics you see there is a marked difference between simple demons and angels. That much is clear. Fallen Angels would not bother possessing pigs. The rest is a bit more tenuous but the understanding that the ancient Israelite had was that the demons are the spirits of the Nephilim that were wiped out in the flood. According to ancient Jewish sources, because the Nephilim were angel/human hybrids and not an ordained creature of God their spirits are cursed to roam the earth.

This is not doctrine as it comes from pseudepigrapha sources but it is a pretty satisfactory explanation as "demons" are always trying to posses bodies and angels can manifest them at will and do so in numerous instances in the Bible.

I seriously don't mean anything personal, and I realize you sincerely believe your faith. I truly hope you will take a hard look at more accurate translations of the scripture and compare them.

reply to post by Bigwhammy

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So you think the Nephilam are demons and their parents are the fallen angels, interesting.

As for using other bibles, I have six in my personal library, and I often quote from bible sites like these.
biblos.com...

I don't want to get into it with you because nothing I can say will change your mind, and nothing you can say or show me with all these video's is going to sway me from the truth of reality.

Cut all the garbage and distractions away and think about this singular point.
Think about who has taken Jesus words from Matthew 28 verses 19, 20 the most seriously of any branch of Christianity? Top 5 religions, name them.

And of that group who is participating in the fulfillment of Matthew 24 verse 14 at the highest level in almost every country of the world in multiple languages and cultures?

Something to mediate on.

I guess no one has seen this.

And yes I copied and pasted it, I'm to lazy to type it out.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

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Well it can not be watch tower because he says


Sorry but the watchtower cult has a completely different gospel from the one he referred to, so they are completely excluded.

Evangelism of The Jehovah's Witness

YouTube Link

Something to meditate on.

reply to post by Bigwhammy

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Mt 7:22-23 cuts back your way too, as does Romans 10 verse 2.

Well this is a pointless exercise in futility for both of us.

As you say it's nothing personnel, but be warned when the Great Tribulation strikes you'll see what happens, mark my words and mark them well, the religions that God disapproves of will be be wiped out first.

I did a google search using "Jesus created begotten" because it seems I need to do some study on the topic. I came up with a blog purporting to refute the Jehovah's Witness' version of the relationship between Father God and Son God, or in JW terminology, Jehovah and Jesus. Interestingly, the trinitarian believer immediately goes into a philosophical discourse.
He uses John 10:30 "I and my Father are one." to show that God is a monad. Micah 5:2 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." is thrown in there to support this.
John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." This one verse seems sufficient to establish that The Son and The Father coexisted befor the world was created.
Back to the monad, it really does not mean anything more special than just saying "one". There was the monad, the dyad, and the triad, meaning one, two, and three. It seems like the blogger wants to say that, way back, before there was a creation, there were two persons who were a monad. I have this mental picture of this clear bubble just floating around in this dark void with a fuzzy view of two people inside. Pagan philosophy to prove God? I don't know. Sounds a little funny to me.


[edit on 23-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

unfortunately, there arent any scriptures to say that demons were created specifically as demons.

in fact the opposite logic can be applied being as god's creation was "good". if god intended man to live forever on earth in happiness, why would he create something as evil and perverted like demons?

there is also nothing to suggest that the nephilum were spirit creatures that could survive the flood.

it sound like alot of supposition to me especially since the bible doesnt differentiate between the 2.

if its not about pride, then please tell me where it says the angels received the law? you havent addressed this yet.

and you statement that Elohiym never applies to humans is incorrect.

exodus 7:[1] And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

elohiym is by no means a limited title. it can simply mean "mighty one" in some contexts.

so its not at all impossible for ps 82 to be referring to people as you suggest.

i also looked up you site, i found a lack of scriptural prove for alot of the things they assert

im sorry, i didnt realize that the bible wasnt enough

are you seriously taking a parable as literal?

"abraham's bosom" was a metaphor for the dead (eccl 9:5,10) to await judgement.

even if "the paradigm shifted" and now it was heaven, this is not happen when jesus died. i showed you scriptural proof that the resurrection happens in the "last day"

why are you so intent on defending a comma that wreaks havoc on scriptural continutity?



this has nothing to do with the resurrection, but rather gifts jeus gave to the congregation on earth

[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
[14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
[15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:



again, a parable

parable - a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
m-w.com



a vision paul had, again not necessarily literal



ok finally you post a scripture that uses paradise in the correct context, however the scripture makes no reference to "when"



no reference to time or paradise.

john 6:[40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

in the future

acts 24: [15] And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

in the future

2 tim 2:[17] And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
[18] Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

rev 20:[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

in the future

1 cor 15: [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.