Bible Translations compared

"Oneness" people who are worse, in my opinion than "orthodox" Trinitarians.

us that the official name?

i guess Jesus Divinian is a bad choice of words. because he is divine.

reply to post by miriam0566

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I think I probably understood what you meant but I just wanted a clearification from you so other people get what you were saying.
Yes, that is what it is called and a lot of people go along with it without realizing they are falling for some sort of new invention, actualy thinking they are holding onto the old established 'truth'.
I actually am glad there is a such thing as JW's becuase it stands as a stark reminder of how far the seventh day adventist church has fallen. Let me tell you what is going on; things like wooden crosses being put in churches and the elevation of what was the table of the symbols for cummunion, that were meant to be at the level of the congregation, to become a kind of "altar" like a Catholic mass. The hand of the Jesuits are to be seen as it moves the church into conformity with the 'ritualism' of Rome. Horrifying, to say the least.

Sorry for putting this into this topic miriam. But i dont know how to U2U

I have a question for you miriam. Your the only one who makes most sense to me. So i need your help.

Can you tell me what God tels us about the infinite dimension space. Did he create space! Or was it always there. Did God create everything just from a thought.
Is our infinite dimension space just a thought in Gods mind. Is our reality a event happening within Gods mind. Or did God create a reality apart from him self from just a thought.


Can you tell me anything about this!





[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

If you do not mind, I can inject my opinion.
God created the laws of how things work, that govern the material universe. Scientists can make observations of the universe and form theories about it and we have things like Galileo and Newton and Einstein and quantum mechanics theories that scratch the surface of a deeply complex system. All the things that we would think of as the laws of nature were invented by God before anything existed and once the different aspects of that infinite mind and its agencies had done their work to put that plan into effect there was a space that could contain a wide range of things and principles and forces and thoughts.
God Himself is manifest within this universe and this indicates a commitment to the everlasting nature of it and the reality of it.

[edit on 18-1-2009 by jmdewey60]

OK....So two things existed in the beginning before anything else. God and space!
Meaning God is within the infinite dimension space! Or dose it mean that God is the infinite space? I didn't really understand.

As far as i know the infinite dimension space it self dosent have any roles so that could make sense,only the matter that is inside the space work by specific roles. Like gravity and so on.

Is this what you are trying to tell me with your reply!

You see i am still trying to understand the creation part from the Bible.
To make peace with my thoughts i have to know if the dimension space really is infinite. I have to know what position it has compared to God. Is space Gods playground to create life. But where dose space place God!

Thanks for a good answer jmdewey60. But do you have any thought about what i am asking for now.

God is infinite and the universe, defined as the space that every thing currently occupies, is only conditionally finite.
Let me give you a simple example to explain the concept: If I open a Word document with a blank page, the window opens to whatever size the last document I had open was. The space inside the window appears to be a limited quantity. If I click on the page and hit a key, the document will expand as long as I hold my finger down. So the document is conditionally finite in that it is only as big as it needs to be. Hypothetically, my document is infinite in size but it will never get as big as it can.
Time expands as necessary to accommodate the fact that things always seem to keep happening but there is not something built into it that says it will go on forever and never cease to expand. In a way, time is another "thing". It is a created thing that is dependent on God, who is infinite by nature. So the concept of eternity is conditional.
According to the will of God, the material manifestation of God existed simultaneously with the moment that the universe acquired the ability to hold a material thing of any sort. So there is the action upon the desire of the mind to extend its existence in a way that the fact of its existence can be shared with and known by, other entities that He would model on Himself.
That desire is not a fleeting fancy that will pass like a whim and the universe collapse and disappear with it. God has made a serious commitment to seeing the thing through. We may have an idea of what that might be because we share a similarity with God and can sympathize with what He may have gone through to maintain this existence we have, but we need to realize that because this is God we are talking about, it is something more profound than what we can currently understand.


[edit on 18-1-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60

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Thanks that's the exact same idea as i have as well. Good to know that i am on the same track as others. Religion is new to me i am just getting started. I have not read that much from the Bible yet But its good to try and understand everything from the beginning. So one can get the pieces to fit in with the rest of the message it gives.

Thanks for the good reply. Even though it was a bit of topic.

spy... i sent you a U2U.

on the top bar you should see U2U in red.

or go to membercenter and then on the left should be U2U.

if you want to send one to a member, under their post is a button for U2U

reply to post by miriam0566

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I'm still waiting on your lengthy reply. Sounds like you're mad at me for something.

Also, to add in with the other comments, I maintain that God and Jesus co-existed before creation. They both work as one but are both separate beings. God the Father and Jesus the Son. The God that spoke to the patriachs in the Old Testament and who claimed to be "I AM WHO I AM" to Moses was Jesus. Jesus was the Creator of all things on behalf of the Father. I will make a new thread concerning all of this in case you guys start to have a heart attack over such a bold claim of 2 divine powers at work before creation. Please hold your comments for this post for my new thread AFTER I post my proof. God bless you all.

not at all, i forgot thats all. im sorry. ill start on it now.



i hold the same belief. jesus was the firstborn of all creation (col 1:15) so there had to be this period of time (no idea how long) that it was just god and jesus.



ill wait for you to post the thread for this one.

For some reason this looks like a competition

When i read you replays. I think both of you have great knowledge on this topic.

But for some reason i feel that i am the only one who is getting something out of this. I dont comment on your whews because you two have more knowledge on his then i do. I just use it to manifest my feelings towards God. Because that is whats important for me. I base my knowledge on what i feel.
From the side line i can see two arguments. But i draw my own conclusion. I dont even know if my conclusion would fit in to your whews. Because i have my own mind and my own feelings. And you have yours. But we can agree on that we all read the same arguments.

How can we ever see things the same way if we dont share the same mind!

reply to post by spy66

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It's simply two "self-thinking" minds that share a common belief but differ at the details. I base my beliefs soley on the Holy Bible. The different translations don't mean much to me because if you reference the vast majority of translations, you'll get a clear picture. Some translations work better than others for certain passages. As a whole, I like the NKJV but to do real research, you should parallel translations.

reply to post by miriam0566

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I personally don't agree with the statement about Jesus being the first of creation. He co-existed with God the Father before creation. My new thread will explain.

reply to post by Locoman8

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I judge the words and the texts by my feelings and common sense. By that i can get a thought of what the bible is all about and what it is trying to say. I think the bible has a lot of words. But the message is not that long. Its just put into different images. I think we see the same thing but from different directions. Depending on what approach you use.

My approach is not to read the Bible page by page. I want to use my feelings, I want to use my self. My idea of all this is that God is all based on love and trust. And knowledge wont give me love or trust. It will just give me somebody else's opinion. And that opinion is just a bonus i use to seek more truth within my self. Because i am the knowledge and i am the truth. Its by my knowledge and my truth i am going to be judged.

reply to post by spy66

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"What is truth?"
Who said that? The herodian king of Judea. He wanted a thirty second answer to the question. Truth often comes in the form of a paradox. Real truth is a little complex and just out of our reach, so you have to have a certain degree of flexibility because that thought always has to be there, in the back of your mind that no matter how smart you may think you are, you missed something, just enough to always make you wrong. That is what being human is about and we are stuck with that for the time being.




[edit on 21-1-2009 by jmdewey60]

Your right. But its not easy to put this in a way for everybody to understand what someone means.

Truth is a dangerous thing to proclaim. It would mean that you have all knowledge.

But it is within our self that we will have the love and understanding of God. It will be in our own way. My way is not like yours. And your way is not like mine. That means if i proclaim my way to be true. You would not agree. Because we have a different relationship with god.

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by spy66

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Those words happen to be the written will of God to mankind. I don't belittle a single word of the Holy Scripture. If it is written as law, it is to be done by His followers. A bunch of words is what a book is. Scripture is another story. spy66, read through the bible with a translation understandable for you. Your feelings can be your best friend or your worst enemy because you have this thing called a concience that is persuadeable by God or Satan. Be careful of your feelings but don't totally ignore them. God bless you.

alot of people think that. they see a plural god and automatically think that it is plural. which makes sense because in most languages that is the case. however there is a problem, the word ¨created¨ is rendered in third person singular masculine perfect.

implies that ¨Elohim¨ is not plural but is actually a superlative form. meaning it technically should be translated ¨almighty god¨ or ¨the one true god¨.

the use of the plural form with a singular verb describes uniqueness or might. there are a few other examples that support this grammatical construction.

מלך מלכי המלכים
"melekh maləkêi ha-məlâkhim" does not refer to "a king, kings of kings", but to "a king of unsurpassed kingship"

שיר השירים
"shir ha-shirim" does not refer to "a song of songs", but to "a song that is the quintessential song"

ימים רבים
"yamim rabim" refers to "a great sea" as easily as to "great [or 'many'] seas"



umm... the plural for theos is theoi.

1:1 is very clear that ¨the word was a god¨ (singular). that is the most straight forward and literal way you can translate it.

alot of the controversy centered on this passage stems from people who are hell-bent on supporting the trinity. so they come up with weird obscure grammatical references so that the passage can fit their beliefs. but they always ignore the simple.

if i said, ¨putin was with the president, and putin was a president¨ you would know exactly what i mean. you wouldnt be guessing whether putin and the president are the same person. except coptic doesnt have a word for ¨a¨ so they would say ¨putin was with the president, and putin was president.¨ to you that would sound weird, but to a native it would be clear.

this is why both ¨theos¨ are rendered singular. because they are singular.



yes it does imply that he existed before creation. but thats were the implications end. the ¨word¨s creation can neither be confirmed nor denied with this passage.

however it you look up col 1:15 it refers to jesus as ¨firstborn of every creature¨ or ¨of creation¨ depending on how the translation renders ¨ktisis¨. this passage plainly says that jesus was created. and it doesnt conflict with john 1:1. him being the firstborn means he was created before the rest of creation.

proverbs 8:[22] The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
[23] I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
[24] When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
[25] Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
[26] While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
[27] When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
[28] When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
[29] When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
[30] Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

rev 3:[14] And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;



proverbs 8:30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, (New American)

so in a way yes, jesus created all things. but the credit goes to god (the arquitect)

alot of people in the world share this view. but alot of times it has to do with the fact that people dont like to be wrong. you show someone a scripture that very clearly shows that they are holding on to a belief that simply isnt true and they will get offended really quick. they start yelling questions like ¨how can you possibly be arrogant enough to think you know how it is?¨ which is usually a sure sign that they are wrong, they know, but they dont want to admit it.

the bible, admittedly, does get deep. but its not designed to be this perpetual mystery. there is a point where you move on from the ¨discovery¨ phase and ¨lock down¨ certain truths. in fact if you dont lock down certain truths, other truths will be hidden from you.

ill give you an example.

job 14:13 Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me!

you think whats sheol? so you do research and realize that job is talking about hell. he´s asking god to hide him in hell.

Douay-Rheims Bible renders it
¨that thou mayest protect me in hell¨

that makes no sense. why would job ask god to put him in hell to protect him? is job saying that hell is better than god´s fury? possibly.

but notice too that the new american standard bible renders hell ¨sheol¨, but the king james renders it ¨grave¨. so which is it, fiery hell, or dirt grave?

knowing the condition of the dead would help alot in understanding this passage.

eccl 9:[5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
[6] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
[10] Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

king solomon is describing what is the difference between ¨dead¨and ¨alive¨. we think, the dead do not. a rock for example is dead. it doesnt move or act unless another force is applied to it. so the dead are in a fiery hell or dirt grave?

this explains what job is saying. he is begging to die, at least then he wouldnt suffer.

if you take eccl 9´s passage and ¨lock down¨ that truth. then other things make sense.

suddenly when the bible says things like ¨resurrection¨, it makes sense. a person dies (becomes non-existant) and is raised up again. (restored to life)

what about the soul? if the soul is immortal then technically we cant die. we will always exist in one form or another. but gen 3 says that we can indeed die. and eccl 9 says what it feels like. now you might stumble upon

ezekial 18:[4] Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

but some times you might not have scriptures that are as clear as that. sometimes you have to use several scriptures and passages to figure things out.

so what happens when you go to church and you hear a priest say that ¨when we all die, our immortal soul shall either return to god who is in heavens, or burn eternally in hell¨ or ¨you friend´s soul is in purgatory, however we can pray on his behalf.¨ (priest later told me how much these prayers would cost) what can you say about these men?

they arent preaching ¨their¨ truth. truth has nothing to do with it. these are lies. and the bible exposes them for lies.

so be careful with ¨your truth, my truth¨ philosophy. its works with certain things in life like choice in clothing or what you want to eat for lunch, but with the bible, not so much