God is an Abortionist!

i agree with alot of what you are saying. i had my first abortion when i was twelve. ill be honest with you, i was really too young to understand the significance of what was happening. but later and after other abortions it began to really affect me.

for some people, its not going to matter, but i would say that most dont realize just how traumatic it is until after.

Thank you for being honest!
12 is so young! Was the guy young, too?
If not, he should've been prosecuted for rape!
My abortion affected me so badly, that the next time, I decided to keep it.
I had a miscarriage, though......

i think i read about that in one of your posts. (not sure if it was this thread) did it happen with a swing?

personally, now im a christian and i am anti-abortion. however ive never felt it to be my place to tell other women in that situation what to do. if asked i will always advise adoption. what i really wish though is that people who get abortions could weigh the consequences. i dont think alot of women understand that its not that simple

reply to post by miriam0566

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What a refreshing and humane attitude, and what a contrast to some of the opinions offered on this subject by 'religious' people on this site.

You say a lot of women don't understand it isn't that simple. That's probably true the first time, but anyone contemplating a second abortion (for whatever reason) is bound to think hard and long about it. I've seem this happen with a woman of my acquaintance; a bit of a hard case, you might have called her, but afterwards she was shattered; her whole life changed after that. Ultimately, it was a change for the better, but then she's a strong lady. Others might not be so lucky.

A few days ago I was watching a chcken whose chick had died. The poor bird was distraught, darting about all over the place looking for the lost chick, clucking mournfully and generally presenting a picture of utter misery. I'm not equating chickens to women, but whatever the species, maternal instinct is not lightly thwarted. The loss of even a potential child takes a terrible toll.

As for me, I believe without the faintest shadow of doubt that the resort to abortion should be legal and freely available to any woman who desires it. But nobody in their right mind is 'pro' abortion - just pro the legal availability of it. I agree with you, Miriam; a woman should think hard before she decides to have an abortion.

But that doesn't mean she shouldn't have one if she needs to.

i understand what your saying, but i dont completely agree. (not the legality part, its none of my business what is legel or not.)

the fact is, we are dealing with a human life. the discussion should never ignore that fact.

woman kills her 5 year old child, she´s a monster. but she aborts her unborn baby, she´s exercising a choice.

what really hits me hard about this argument is when they say ¨she has a right to decide what to do with her body¨, but its not her body, its her baby´s.

woman chooses to get an abortion, its her business, not mine. i dont agree, but really, its not my business.

reply to post by miriam0566

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Indeed. The life in question is the life of the woman contemplating an abortion.


Your theology is spot-on, Miriam (love the way you wiped the floor with poor old PreTribGuy), but your biology is atrocious.

A fetus isn't a baby. Even you are obliged to acknowledge this through the use of the adjective 'unborn' in the sentence quoted above.


That is certainly not the opinion of her body, whose immune system fights tooth and nail to get rid of the foreign biological matter in it until it is defeated by the immunosuppressive mechanisms of pregnancy. Thus 'morning sickness' and most of the other miseries of the condition.

Besides, your claim that the body belongs to the baby sounds positively blasphemous. Is not the human body said to be the Temple of the Holy Spirit? Does that Temple suffer violation and occupation by an intruder?


In this, at least, you are a hundred percent correct.

1. god doesnt interfere with humans anymore
2.because adam and eve ate from the tree of knowledge(the one god told them not to eat) and therefore learned about disease death abortion, retardations mutations ect. that is the reason why earth is in such a bad shape. so humans caused their own downfall abortions/miscarriages are our fault
3. until a baby is born it is a parasite. dont humans have other parasites removed too?

[edit on 19-1-2009 by kyoushi]

honestly, i fail to see how the fetus is inconsequential.

i never understood that argument.

kill a baby = bad
kill a fetus that is 100% certainly going to turn into a baby = choice

i mean honestly, can anyone definitively say, without any doubt, when life becomes precious?

why is a fetus worth so much less than a baby?

reply to post by miriam0566

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Because it is not a human being.

Because it is not even independently alive.

Simple, really.

who determines whether a fetus is a human being? its clear that it will be become one. why would it be nonhuman up to a point, then human? who determines that?



what difference does that make? just because its forming and requires help to function doesnt mean it isnt alive.

reply to post by miriam0566

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We humans have always sett a standard for everything. Even life.

We build our laws on our standards. Then we educate them to the public.

Our knowledge is build on a standard. Because we need a standard to place a law. In other words we humans need to draw a line somewhere.

Our standards dont have anything to do with what God thinks. But what we think. We think that our moral values are greater then Gods. This is what this debate tells me. And i agree with you.

It seams like we draw a line about life to make what we do seam right. Its what we do with most everything. If you tell your self a lie long enough you will start to believe in it. Or you will adapt to it in some moral way.
And the generation borne into this moral whew will inherit the same value of morals.

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by miriam0566

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What difference does it make to God the Abortionist? God, defined as Christians do, is personallly responsible for every death in the universe: not only all the spontaneous abortions but all the deliberate ones too; all the murders, all the infanticides, all the deaths from torture and all the acts of cruelty; and responsible, furthermore, for deprivation, poverty and diseases for which there is no cure. Because the Christian God is omnipotent; these things could not happen unless He let them.

Answer: it makes no difference. And that is why God cannot exist the way you conceive of Him, because such an existence would be an abomination. There is only one kind of being to whom human life means squat and that is Man.

No, wait a minute - I forgot dogs.

If you would seek the value of a human life, seek it amongst humanity, or inquire of a dog. What is unborn has not lived.

all you did was sidestep my question with an assumption.

what makes a fetus not human?

from day one it is unique supplied with its own dna and growing by its own will. yes it is dependant on the mother for literally everything, but it is still a distinct human life. why wouldnt it be?

Abortion is the genocide of the unwanted unborn.
And genocide is a choice made with those with the power to end life.

reply to post by miriam0566

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By its own will?

Even a child of ten does not grow by its own will. It has no say in the matter.

As for answering your question: look, Miriam, I began by applauding your attitude towards individual liberty in this thread. I have agreed with you that an abortion is not something to be taken lightly, and that such a step should be avoided if at all possible. I respect your grasp of Christian theology, a demanding and intellectually labyrinthine subject. What more do you want?

I have no intention of getting involved in an argument over fundamentals on this thread, where we are discussing whether or not God could be regared as an abortionist. Is my pancreas human? Yes. Is it alive? Yes. Does it have individual human rights? No. Good heavens, what next? Let's start a Votes For The Unborn movement!

[edit on 21-1-2009 by Astyanax]

does the mother´s body grow the fetus? or does the fetus do that on its own?



that fine. and i stand by not telling people what to do. however these are some of the questions that people dont like asked and we have to ask them, remember deny ignorance? it is an extremely valid and relevant question. what makes a fetus NOT human?

the problem is that the questions holds all types of implications about human (our) morality and the choices that we make. obviously noone who is proabortion is going to agree with me. they are going to fight me tooth and nail to prove that a fetus is nothing more that a parasitic growth that the woman can wish away at will. adding any sort of acknowledgment to my argument would mean the entrance of that nasty ¨m¨ word, that noone likes to throw around.

dont think for a second i have this view because of god. this has nothing to do with my religion. if a fetus is human, then its wrong to abort. simple as that.



yes i realised that when you brought up that god is responsible for every single death ever. but you didnt cite that much proof in that matter, so im not sure how to debate that with you



a pancreas is part of a human. it will never move on to to start a life of its own. it will always BE a pancreas. it will never be self aware. when your 50, your pancreas will never ask you were it came from and why its here and what is the meaning of life.

big difference.

reply to post by miriam0566

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As someone who has dealt with infertility and a second trimester miscarriage (meaning a D&C is necessary or the torture of delivering a dead lump in the maternity ward) - not the same as a 1st trimester m/c or abortion by any stretch - I can say that there is no way what died inside me was a human being yet. A potential human being, but, no, not a human being. I resent every law around abortion and reproductive care there is as an invasion into my proper medical care. My experience radicalized me into being even more Pro-Choice than I was before.

Perhaps it is because I grew up knowing so many women who have had miscarriages and stillbirths that I didn't appreciate how foreign the idea of wanting to not even tell anyone outside of your partner and doctors that you are pregnant until the baby is born alive was. Every woman but one in my family has miscarried or had a stillbirth. It changes how you view pregnancy when you grow up in that culture. My miscarriage affected my husband more than it did me. This is a much more common thing than either physicians or the general public realize because good statistics are not kept.

To the question about God being an abortionist?

Most Evangelical Christians and general Christians do not understand fully what it means to be "Fallen." This means that mankind and this realm are diseased. It is being healed by the grace of Christ's intervention. But, it, like all healings, is taking time. The pastors who say to a woman "It's God's Will" are actually doing more damage. Most women will interpret this as being God's punishment. Luckily for me, because my mother had had that experience and then got GOOD counseling from an Adventist Minister I did not have that experience.

What did the Adventist minister tell her? What had I carried with me as a shield for this experience? That it is not God who does things directly in our lives except under extraordinary circumstances. Sometimes things just happen. And, sometimes, God just says No.

One word of advice to anyone who is comforting a woman who has miscarried or had a stillbirth. The only thing to say that will give comfort is: "I'm so sorry for your loss." That is it. Don't put your foot in your mouth. If she asks why, the answer is that "bad things just happen, there is no reason why." Because that is the truth of the matter despite the blasphemy being taught by the prosperity gospel people.

Now, the Buddhists have a lovely mantra surrounding miscarriage. In their philosophy, parents of the fetus that is miscarried have given the gift of nirvana to that soul. The soul needed to return just long enough to be loved and wanted before leaving the cycle of reincarnation.

God is not an abortionist. God is not that involved in people's lives. He expects us to move forward on our own. To stand up and grow up. He gave us free will, minds, a whole world to be explored. To treat God as a vending machine of wants and needs is just childish - not childlike.

It seems that many people don't want to be mature in their spirituality and relationship with God. They want to stay at the level of a 2 year old or so demanding God give them whatever they want. I don't understand that attitude since Christ said to follow Him we must take up our own cross. Why would we be treated better than our teacher? He was hated by those of this world and made to suffer. Why should any of us believe we are going to get out of suffering - whatever form it takes?

God's Will is something that affects the soul primarily - not the body. And, God is neither male nor female - but Christ did come as a man.

my question still stands, what makes it not human?

reply to post by miriam0566

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It is not able to live independent of the womb. Until that point, it is not a human being yet.

reply to post by mlowsley

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That's not a valid point as a newborn can't survive without help from other humans either.