Originally posted by PreTribGuy
john was one of this 144,000 because he says in chapter 1
[6] And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
There is nothing in the text to make John into one of the "144,000", the Biblical text just doesn't support this theory.
rev 5:7-10
[7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
[8] And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden
vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
[9] And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to
God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
[10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
so the kings and priests are mentioned here as ¨24 elders¨
1 cor 4:[8] Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with
you.
apostle paul talking to christians who acted like they already received their reward.
heb 3:[1] Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
the apostles as well as the the first century christians understood what they would be doing in heaven. ruling as kings and priests.
however there is evidence that the 144,000 and the 24 elders are the same group.
rev 11:
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their
foreheads.
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with
their harps:
[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the
hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were
redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
rev 20:
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of
Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in
their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of
Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
both groups were redeemed from mankind. the reason that these are described as two separate groups has to do with the fact that not everyone is in
heaven at the same time. some of these who have a ¨heavenly calling¨ are still on earth. in this respect they sing ¨before¨ the elders.
but there is every reason to believe that they are the same groups. they are redeemed from earth, brought to heaven, rule as kings and priests.
why does this match the locust army?
because the apostles preached. it was their most important commission. there is evidence that all first century christians preached. but unfortunately
they were few.
revelation is saying that in the last days they will swarm. we will see preaching done very intensely
Originally posted by PreTribGuy
Clearskies (as well as you) actually quoted the verse that completely defeats this idea:
Rev. 9:11 And they [size=4](the locusts that you call "christians")[/size] had a king over them, which is the
angel of the bottomless pit,
whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
The Christian's King of kings is Jesus Christ. For a Christian to call an angel (of the bottomless pit) their
KING defies Biblical
scripture.
This is an erroneous conclusion, Miriam.
Are (real) Christians ever described as having an "angel-king" over them in the Bible?
But I also want to say, again, I (often) appreciate your scholarship you do, thank you.
essentially the question is, is jesus and the angel of the abyss the same person?
well, one thing is for sure, the angel is on god´s side and does the will of god. so whatever is in the pit (or abyss) is released at god´s will.
rev 20
[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand
years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
why do i think he is was jesus?
- he is a king.
- his encounter with ¨legion¨ testifies that the demons know what he will do to them.
luke 8:
30 And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion"; for many demons had entered him.
31 They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss.
32 Now there was a herd of many swine feeding there on the mountain; and the demons implored Him to permit them to enter the swine. And He gave them
permission.
why would the demons be scared if jesus was not authorized to send them into the pit? in essence, he had the ¨keys¨
