This is my rant about science. Science can only help humanity so far. People who like science seem completely arrogant when it comes to ethics. They try to enhance everything they make themselves seem as if they don't like doing things naturally-- the right way. Okay. Yes. I admit. People get diseases. They need to be helped.

Science isn't as perfect as a lot of people would like to think it is. When one takes science seriously they feel they have to be completely objective-- which many of them aren't. I say that it is a total lie because no one can be completely objective about anything or consider all facts for every situation. Denial is a very powerful tool. Remember, with CERN how they told us nothing would go wrong, with the machine, but their machine blew up.

A lot of scientists are arrogant. They talk as if they think they know it all on a certain subject. The way scientists analyze things... is just a little silly to me. Scientists seem to be way too analytical and they look too much in the literal words or meanings of ideas. They limit their creative thought process because science doesn't allow them to be very creative about their work. After all they feel they must be perfect. They must be precise. Or their experiments will be shown how lousy they think they are.

I think it's important not to be ignorant of what knowledge science can bring to humanity, yet, I don't think science replaces religion. I however, do think that science is much like a new religion. They worship mother earth and the creator. They worship the cosmos. They also worship other gods that created other universes much like our own. And, they worship the human body. If they deny this they are denying what their work bases upon.

Science just needs to be tolerant to other ideas. Scientists themselves... really need to allow religious people to try to look at ideas that scientists themselves often try to think up... and allow the more religious people to research their own beliefs in god and prove them with their own methods.

That being said, I do not believe science has all of the answers to life, the universe, and everything. I believe religion can answer a lot of questions science can't. Science has created a lot more ideas that have been nonsense than religion has ever had during its progressive advance into trying to make the world more scientific. I also think that scientists are so emotionally detached from civilization that rather than experiencing emotions for themselves they try to test individuals animals and people to try to see what causes emotions in them. Have they become so objective themselves that they can't explain their very own emotions?

I think science is far from perfect. What is this world coming to?

Well I will tell you honestly in my usual soft voice that what you wrote there could have a few words changed and sound exactly like religion. Now I won't by any means pick on a certain one so let's leave it vague.




So can religion. I watch Christian Scientists who believe the that the Lord will cure their son's debilitating and almost fatal diseases and watch him die in their arms. I know you've already admitted people get diseases but that seems highly unethical to me to keep a child from an important immunization or life saving treatment.



Looking at this statement I can freely and easily say neither is religion and yet people carry the word of their doctrine as if it is infallible.



Remember the constant religious fanatics who claimed the end of the world was coming? Remember that the Pilgrims shunned and destroyed the indians after the assistance the indians gave them?



Let's look at people who are followers of God and the Pagans. They both seem to believe they have it figured out and when you ask them a question sometimes their only answer is 'because it is how God wants it.' Is that really as far as we as religious individuals are willing to go? Do we truly want nothing of this world more than to be led?

Look all over this board, even Christians will debate other Christians on the true meaning of the words because in some cases people are looking to deep into things.



This sounds dangerously as if you are calling scientists Pagans or Satanists. I could be wrong but I have met alot of scientists who worship the body and other gods as you mention here. I have met many Christian individuals who are cosmologists. They by no means worship one but Jesus Christ and the Lord.



If you haven't noticed, many religious members are very intolerant of science as well. They need to allow science the chance to prosper. I know partial term abortions may be awful to some and I won't say I don't myself think it's bad but if the babies are already aborted why can a scientist not use this to give a man or woman a new chance at life and mobility?

As for the second part of that paragraph, who exactly is stopping religious people fromt esting theories? I see it happening all around. I have yet to hear a scientist who blew up a church but I have heard numerous stories of abortion doctors being physically attacked and verbal assaults on scientists who are working with cloning. Who is stopping who again?

CONTINUED

Well I will tell you honestly in my usual soft voice that what you wrote there could have a few words changed and sound exactly like religion. Now I won't by any means pick on a certain one so let's leave it vague.




So can religion. I watch Christian Scientists who believe the that the Lord will cure their son's debilitating and almost fatal diseases and watch him die in their arms. I know you've already admitted people get diseases but that seems highly unethical to me to keep a child from an important immunization or life saving treatment.



Looking at this statement I can freely and easily say neither is religion and yet people carry the word of their doctrine as if it is infallible.



Remember the constant religious fanatics who claimed the end of the world was coming? Remember that the Pilgrims shunned and destroyed the indians after the assistance the indians gave them?



Let's look at people who are followers of God and the Pagans. They both seem to believe they have it figured out and when you ask them a question sometimes their only answer is 'because it is how God wants it.' Is that really as far as we as religious individuals are willing to go? Do we truly want nothing of this world more than to be led?

Look all over this board, even Christians will debate other Christians on the true meaning of the words because in some cases people are looking to deep into things.



This sounds dangerously as if you are calling scientists Pagans or Satanists. I could be wrong but I have met alot of scientists who worship the body and other gods as you mention here. I have met many Christian individuals who are cosmologists. They by no means worship one but Jesus Christ and the Lord.



If you haven't noticed, many religious members are very intolerant of science as well. They need to allow science the chance to prosper. I know partial term abortions may be awful to some and I won't say I don't myself think it's bad but if the babies are already aborted why can a scientist not use this to give a man or woman a new chance at life and mobility?

As for the second part of that paragraph, who exactly is stopping religious people fromt esting theories? I see it happening all around. I have yet to hear a scientist who blew up a church but I have heard numerous stories of abortion doctors being physically attacked and verbal assaults on scientists who are working with cloning. Who is stopping who again?

CONTINUED

And science can answer many thing religion can't seem to grasp as well. If I am terminally ill I am going to a doctor before I hit my priestess.



I really hope and pray this doesn't sound inflammatory because I promise it isn't meant to be but what about worshipping something you can't prove exists? If scientists truly did worship the body at leastit is material. We simply have no concrete proof that we didn't make all religions up as a whole but I can assure you if I poke a pin in my finger, it will hurt.



And what of those members who believe the way to penance is through monetary means? That is extremely emotionally detatched in my opinion. What about those who think that you have to pray through a saint to get to God or those who think the real god is the universe itself? That is detatched and totally untested and unproven. How can a pastor sit and tell me that it's all going to be ok because God has a plan and give me no real theory on how things will change for the better? I am not saying science can either but to me this argument you make is so one-sided I can't help but to back my words up in the same manner.



Once again religion is just as far from perfect. At least in some manner scientific theories have been proven. What is this world coming to when we all blindly follow a dogma written by men that we can't prove ever happened?

Can you prove to me you have five fingers on your right hand? Take a picture and send it to me. While you are at it, may I see the pictures of Jesus that don't involve a potato chip resembling the virgin Mary or a burn in the back of the fireplace of a Midwestern home that resembles Jesus?

Just so you know I don't trust alot of mainline history either until I ind solid proof.

Long story short I think this argument sounds exactly like one I could easily make against religion.

Thank you for your time and I look forward to the response.

EDIT - VERY SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST

-Kyo

[edit on 13-8-2008 by KyoZero]

reply to post by KyoZero

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I see that you raise a lot of valid points. I do agree with you with how science does help a lot of people who need help. Yet I just disagree with a lot of the nonsense that the scientific community has put forth. They claim that they are objective a lot of the time. I don't see anything wrong with scientific advancement in the medical or technological field.

Yet, here's where I think the problems that you have with religion, and, I'll explain how people are being stopped from proving religion and their own faith. Also, to touch upon something I said before, science before in the past, they are far from perfect, and so is religion, but a lot of the ideas scientists have come from religion. I don't like it when scientists will try to make the claim for a discovery when it already has been discovered through religion or by someone else who just hasn't happened to have the fortune of being in the scientific community to propose their own point of view. A lot of people don't have access to scientific tools because they don't have the knowledge or background to work in a profession of science. Because of that there are many people that can't prove their faith, and their religion, because they don't have the technical experience to work with scientific tools or the scientific knowledge to prove once and for all that ideas like faith and god's existence.

The reason why I believe science is not perfect is because a lot of the studies are done to try to explain behavior through scientific means and because of that I believe scientists become detached from other people and they become obsessive with trying to explain everything. They think that certain things can't be proven because it would contradict what they believe in. Like, for example, there are scientists that think that things can be predicted by scientific equations, yet we know, that it's impossible to predict everything. They believe that they can find the answer and explanation to human behavior by locking people up in a cage and experimenting on them.

I believe in God. I think that people should have a right to believe in what they believe in. The belief in God has came about because in some way or another the Universe had to have started, so, and what started it? There is now way that it could be by random chance. I believe that a God created the universe. And that the God gave us free will. I just believe that a lot of scientists are close minded and they don't believe in the concept of religion because religion might have been made by people. Yet, that being said, that does not rule out the idea of an omnipotent and all powerful force or entity that controls the universe. As far as we know-- ET's do exist-- and-- because of that-- there is probably someone-- or something-- who created this universe-- and not even the scientific community can deny that.


Yes there are a lot of people who believe in religion that are plain arrogant or that they seem stupid. Yet, religion isn't a stupid concept. Religion has given humanity a moral code. And, there very well could be an all-seeing creator. It's just that it seems like science is trying to take credit for a lot of the ideas that religion has either made prophecy of or has created.

Also, not to mention, there is the fact that scientists are trying to explain our behavior with the theory of genetics. While genetics may determine our biological makeup that's really all it does and the study of genetics-- as you know-- has spawned a lot of unneeded debate. Plus-- much of science has been used to hurt other people, or make people not feel that bad about discrimination. Before civil rights a lot of scientists were thinking that women were better off at home and they didn't need an education. And, as far as we know, scientists in the past have used Darwin's theory of evolution as a method for trying to prove White supremacy.

So you see... I'm not saying that advancement in certain fields of science are bad. It's just that the way the scientific community thinks needs to be changed. They need to be able to see things that are out there that they aren't seeing. I just think that a lot of the scientific community these days are just close-minded. They are turned off by issues they don't care about-- like faith, spirituality, god, ufo's, free-will, metaphysics, feelings, the law of attraction-- yet they love studying stuff we don't really care about-- like the laws of gravity... and coming up with equations we don't understand.

[edit on 14-8-2008 by Frankidealist35]

Well I am going to go point by point again. Again this has stayed so very calm so I will try my best to not sound rude..

It is ever so clear we will not come to a ton of agreement here but we can maybe bridge some gaps.



A holy doctrine telling me that women aren't equal to men is nonsense to me. (please note I didn't neccessarily say Christianity)



That's going to happen alot. But when a religious individual tells me that dinosaurs didn't exist when I see bones ahead of me that is claiming a discovery that was already shown or when they tell me this is how the Earth was made, neither religion or science has proven that one yet.



I do not in any way se how this will be proven unless he comes down here himself. It is intangible and untestable.



I agree completely but scientists should be allowed their faith?



I haven't seen this proven in the scientific OR religious frame yet.



Why can't they deny it? It hasn't been proven otherwise yet.



I am actually going to completely disagree on this one. I have my BA in Psychology and will be starting my masters (once I get accepted) and I frankly believe genetics has alot to do with behavior. Scietists are constantly finding genetic factors shared between two seperate members who have the same disorder or personality.



Let us not forget the massacres and wars that have been started in the name of religions. Crusades, Witch Trials, Radical Islam...



I know religious people who tell me their faith still believes this to this day.



Can you honestly say there aren't masses of religious people who don't feel the same way? I cannot begin to tell you how many times a religious individual has shut me off conversationally once the word Pagan came across my lips or once I talked about creationism vs evolution. I truely don't see science as much different. Look at the clan down in Texas. According to them it's ok to marry multiple people and marry them at age 12-14. That is their divine right according to them.

I think evil exists in both sides and quite frankly I think it's about even. Religious fanatics thump bibles as much as scientists thump text books

-Kyo

A look at past science text-books will tell you that many scientists have at one point in time felt the same way. Also, I never said that these holy doctrines are the voice of God, that’s what people believe, but the people who wrote these words on the doctrines were human beings. So they were writing from their own point of view. And a lot of people that are in science now think this way.


There are going to be people like that, who, don’t really understand how the world works and will just say things. There are also scientists that believe that the world was formed by dust particles coming together (or something along these lines) and eventually it came together to form a planet. My own personal belief is that an unseen force or entity was perhaps behind the creation of the planet and the universe. And of course, yes, there will be people that say stupid things.


It’s not intangible or untestable. I never said God was like a human or of the sort. It could be one of those unseen forces that created the universe and caused the big bang. And yes, you can prove that God exists… the moment the big-bang happened there was a force that caused the Universe to expand in all of these different areas of what once was nothingness… whatever that force that caused this to happen is God. The force that caused conception is God. That’s my belief.


Yes. I do think they should be allowed to have faith. Why shouldn’t they?


Would it make sense for this universe to just pop into existence, if, something else like it hasn’t been created before? I believe that there is no possible way for this entire universe to just pop into existence. It did not come from nothingness. Some powerful force, or, something, created it.


It hasn’t been proven otherwise yet because people in the scientific community have to be “objective” so they can’t allow religious ideas with their work. They won’t allow it to be proven because it would contradict their entire belief system.


Just because you can explain something doesn’t mean that people have a will of their own. It’s just that I feel that scientists have become too detached from other people because they are obsessed with trying to explain people’s behavior rather than communicate with other human beings and talk to them. There are bound to be similar people everywhere. And it has to do a lot with the environment one grows up with. It’s not all genetics though. It’s also nurture-- how they grow up. How someone is raised makes a big difference with how they act in the world.


All of that happened before humanity was civilized. Now people are more or less well behaved. Religion didn’t cause those wars. They just wanted an excuse to conquer other people so they used religion as a reason to rally people. In the future we will probably see wars based on threats nations pose against each other with their technology.


I’m not very religious. I’m more spiritual. Maybe that’s just their belief system and maybe religion doesn’t have anything to do with it.


When you think about it… hard enough… you realize that religion and science are just two ways of looking at the world. My view is that scientists should allow to continue their advancement in their studies… and religious people should be allowed to believe in their own faith without scientists trying to make it harder for people to be religious in the modern world. There should also be room for people like myself, who, take a look at the world in more of a spiritual way and we should be allowed to believe these things without being called crazy or loony by someone who has a negative skeptical stance towards these kinds of things.

So then to me that shows this could have very well been completely made up. The funny part is I AM a religious individual who follows science very well. I will in the end of this post explain my view to aid further discussion.



Again just fine. You are far from a beligerent individual and thus I value your opinion just as much as my own



Once again, your belief and very valued but in reality that isn't proven by any means. Neither is the Big Bang theory proven. There was a force that caused the univere to expand and we agree there but honestly (and I am not trying to sound sarcastic or rude) but prove to me God did it. That's as futile as me trying to prove the Big Bang theory. You may have proof of this but where is the tangible evidence that I can see that directly says, 'God did this.'



Once again my friend we agree but the thing is religion AND science are both based on faith. Franklin didn't just know electrcity could be harnessed. It was faith in his idea that brought him to it and thus we now have electric light.



And this is exactly what goes on in the religious mass as well. Many have a strong belief that a divine power created this universe and they will close their ears just as tightly a a beligerent scientist will.



What about the hundreds and thousands of scientists who now use nothing but communication and polls to reach correlations? I absolutely agree with you that genetics isn't all that's involved. No question there but to say genetics does ntohing but physical aspects is a bit off to me.



what about the unrest in the middle east right now? Each member claims a holy right to a divine land one country is sitting on. Is that not religious in nature? Radical Islam is hapening as we speak. Those who don't follow some faiths can be tortured and killed. The fights and deaths are still happening to this day.



And yet Christian groups ARE stopping the advancement in cloning, some medicines, stem cells and so on. I really haven't yet heard a story where a scietist has gone to a church and attempted to hault their praise. People call these scientists crazy as well.

I truly admit I see zero difference in this battle between the two. They are both fairly equally made fun of I think.

-Kyo

reply to post by KyoZero

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Okay. I misunderstood you then. Judging on what you were saying earlier about how religion has caused wars I assumed that you were an atheist.


Alright, so we can have different opinions from each other and still remain civil.


I said the force that created the universe and caused the expansion of the universe is God. That cannot be disproved. I am here labeling a force that caused everything as God. At some point at some time somewhere in the past-- we know that the universe was created. I believe that whatever caused it to happen is “God”. The word God is a word. I’m not talking about God in the biblical sense. I’m just talking about God.


Of course. Scientists should be allowed to have faith in their work. I am agreeing with you there.


If the Universe is infinite, then, a divine power has to have created it, as the divine power would have to have more power than the universe itself.


I was saying that I think that while these scientists are dedicated to their work they seem to be so engrossed with their studies that they sacrifice their own social life and they become more observers rather than participants. And that could be unhealthy and damage their lifestyle.


The mistake that you have made here is saying that terrorists represent an entire religion. Here in this case-- these middle-eastern terrorists are trying to hijack the religion of Islam. There are plenty of moderate Islamists that hate these extremists.


No one knows what would happen if we cloned another human being. I’m not against stem cell research as long as it isn’t used to build human beings. Scientists in the past have written criticism against the Christian religion, and other religions. I haven’t said a scientist was crazy.

Also, I’m not religious, I’m more spiritual. I believe in chakras, and third-eye stuff, and that we exist on a spiritual plane of existence as well.

sounds like we are moving closer to undestanding. Isn't it amazing how if people talk rationally you can find similar qualities? -hint hint- (not to you of course)

Ok then...Because of how much closer BOTH of us have become I don't have nearly as much to say but I still do truly believe wars have been started in the NAME of God or another deity. Not saying those members were true Christians or Islamics or what have you.



Totally understandable. I very much should have made that clear earlier.



Ok this is half and half. On one hand I can clearly see you don't mean God as in the biblical sense so I think I will take the middle road and ask you to describe more by what you mean when you say God in this sense before I respond.



You may not believe this, but I do actually agree. However what I am saying is that there is nothing tangible to absolutely prove that a divine power did this.



Also good which is exactly why I disagree with religions that do years and years of solitary isolation work without being really with the outside world. Same thing, they know their faith so well and yet they don't know people. Also, call me crazy but I despise celibacy.



I happily concede that I should have said this differently. By member I meant to write religious faction and of course by faction I mean those specific extremists.

Ok I promised I would explain my spirituality now. I am an Egyptian Pagan who believes in the Gaia concept. I think a divine being started the universe and let let it run as it is now. Gaia (or God) to me is the universe itself. Sentient...maybe I am not sure but I think if you are good and you die you become part of that greater good.

Looking forward to your response.

-Kyo

reply to post by Frankidealist35

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As far as science can go, religion really can't. Same applies to religion to some extent. What you seem to be missing from your thoughts is that it is human being who is imperfect and arrogant. It does not matter if we take science or religion, or anything else for that matter, it is always a human being who uses it for wrong purposes in fatal ways.

Science has no personality, feelings, emotions or intelligence. Same exact thing applies to religion. As a thought or a system, religion has no feelings, emotions or personality either - it is a human being who creates such for these two concepts.

You cannot take either one of those and claim it is bad. They are not, humans however can be if they wish to. Both of these can be used to achieve something good. Science has killed a lot of people, but so has religion.

So what's your point, exactly?

What comes to objectivity, are you actually expecting any human being to be absolutely objective? Most people do know it is quite impossible to achieve, and even when they don't, other people will intervene and tell them they aren't. What they claim to do is that they do take into account all that they can understand. Whenever they fall short, other people will come in and help them to perfect their ideas.

In today's world, nobody - nobody - is able to take everything into account. It is impossible because of cheer amount of information alone. Human capacity ends at some point. Today, highly respected science is done in groups and leonardo da vinci's are long gone, since there simply is not enough capacity to take into account all that we know.

reply to post by KyoZero

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Yes. I’m not disagreeing with you. I do agree that religion has caused wars but I think that in order for us to evolve further we should look past that and move on from our past.


No worries!


I believe that humanity is one, and, that God is the driving force within all of us. I have beliefs in global consciousness-- and that at times of crisis the driving force within us all isn’t so much a control of us but it acts more of a catalyst. It fuels our energy to act in certain ways and react to certain crises.


I find the big-bang theory to be lacking something. I doubt that it happened on its own. Maybe a divine power didn’t do this but who knows?


I don’t despise celibacy. I just think that if celibacy is used in a bad way, it can lead to bad things happening, but, celibacy can be used for good things too.

That’s what I dislike about religion That’s why I am more spiritual and less religion. I like to be less bound by the rules and still be able to talk to other human beings about meaningful things. Yet it seems like a lot of people who like religions are obsessive over their own set of beliefs.



I see. I have a similar belief to yours. But I believe that a divine started the Universe and comes in every now and then to check up on us, and, I also believe that God isn’t just the universe, but God also is what is outside the universe as well.

I find myself laughing for two reasons

1. An ATS debate worked beautifully.

2. I don't know what else to debate! :-p

Got any other questions???

-Kyo

reply to post by KyoZero

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1. That's saying something considering how a lot of debates on this board turn out to become flame-wars between religious believers and non-believers when people discuss this kind of stuff...
2. We could debate about the reason why people tend to not want to believe in God if you're up to that.

Sure. Can you tell me a bit more about the Pagan religion?

Sure let's take it one at a time then

Why I persoanlyl believe some don't believe in God.

For any who may be reading in this, I am not speaking for you I can guarantee you that. I am going off of personal experience and what I have viewed and heard from others closer to me.

With that said...off we go!!

I think there are several reason so I will list them for the sake of cleanliness.

1. Some people want full on concrete proof. For example, I am eating sunflower seeds. Unless I am in the matrix (which is possible but frightening) then I am currently able to verify their existence. They are in the bag, now in my hand, and now in my mouth. I can feel them, taste them and shake the bag to hear them. It's very concrete proof that the action of eating these sunflower seeds just occured. The problem some may have is that you can't feel God in the physical sense (or at least they haven't experienced it), you can't smell him, or touch him or hear him. Thus, for them it is a lack of proof.

2. Rebellion takes place in some cases. I think a few out there (not here on ATS or BT) rebel against their parents or the church and thus they make themselves believe God isn't there. It's in the same manner as when a young child lies alot about a subject eventually through self-exposure he may end up literally believing it. See I personally believe God exists but I believe he is a Deity and not the all-being but in the same manner, just as a Christian can't prove to me he does exist, I can't really prove he doesn't.

3. Some other people also feel shunned. I find it funny that although I fit in this group (except I DO believe he is real) I am a proponent of true Christianity. Love thy neighbor and such. Be good to each other is what I beleieve but occassionally when people do get shunned they will take great personal hurt to it.

4. Lack of connection to God and Church. This I think is a pretty large one. (my guess of course and not fact) I think alot of people don't care for the church and God and what they represent. I admit it's hard for me to watch the pastor in my town who just bought to brand new white Cadillacs for him and his wife. Being humble is important to me.

I don't know man, there could be tons of reasons but these are what I have expereinced myself or through others. I rely on the approach of feel. Now I do not mean feeling God's touch, but the connection to him. I don't have it and thus I moved on to try other things. Eventually I found it, which will discuss now to answer your second question.

Well I was raised Catholic and then Protestant once my mother re-married. I followed those laws and the bible to a 'T'. I enjoyed the relationships with friends but all the while I never felt anything towards God. I was baptised twice when I was young and of course as a baby I don't remember it but as a younger kid I remember just doing it to make mom and dad happy. They aren't bad parents by any means but my step father was a super Christian and yet a modest person. I enjoyed that about him but he never once let me look around the rest of the spritual world at all. I remember once wanting to look at a book on witchcraft and he took it and returned it to the store before I could buy it. It was my own money from allowance but I wasn't allowed to read it because it 'wasn't good for me.' So later when I was more independant I took a look around at as much as I could even including Middle Eastern religions. Nothing really spoke to me. The funny thing was at first even Paganism didn't speak to me. One day I met a lovely high priestess and she talekd to me very calmly and non-threateningly about it and when she was finished she listened to my questions and told me the important part is not to chose what I think fits me but choose what feels right to me. Where does my connection lie? Was it in Allah, God, The Goddess, Humanity, Satan? She said take you time and never rush it. So I did and I found Paganism really clicked in my soul.

So I began to journey through the several pantheons and virtually hundreds of deities and felt distraught because I thought it was all a fruitless effort. So one day I remember I really enjoyed Egyptian studies so I looked at that pantheon. I read all about the stories of Isis, Osiris, and Horus and thought I felt something there. I read deeper into it and one day felt several things and heard some words and I haven't looked back since.

Now that I have bored you with my life story here is what you have been waiting for.

As an Ecclectic Pagan I tend to pick and choose pieces of each Pantheon to really delve myself into. I follow what Isis teaches but am a hard polytheist. The main principle I and those around me follow is to revere nature, your fellow mand and woman, and to enjoy and experiences life. I've discovered what is true to me is that sin exists when you harm another life form. I am not a vegan or even a vegetarian but I also don't think the animals we do eat should be kept in such crappy condition. Mostly though, as off topic as it is, I hate the hormones they pump in the meats. For the most part if I had to sum it up in a few words I would say be good to each other. In 'each other' I mean ALL of life to include your own.

So there ya have it

-Kyo

reply to post by KyoZero

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Sure! I'm up to that.



I believe that science is at fault for this. There are people that are so entrenched with the scientific method that they refuse to believe that a God could exist for whatever the reason is because they think God lacks proof of existence.


I believe that it is because there are people who follow different religions and the church that they go to have all sorts of differing opinions on the subject of God. It is because of this that a lot of people believe different ideas-- and-- they don't agree on what God really so they don't end up believing in God because the idea of God sounds fake to them.



What makes you think that people would feel shunned? Do they feel shunned because life isn't going as well as them as they have hoped? What could be the cause of them feeling shunned?


I was raised without my parents taking me to church. Yet I find a lot of comfort believing in spiritual values and I still have managed to find my faith in God myself through my life's struggles and the joys of life that I've had up to this point.


Yes, I can see. I share a similar story. I had once believed in the Jewish faith. My Dad was Jewish. Yet I still didn't like the major religions. I still believed in God-- that there was a God that watched over all of us-- but I wanted to find my own faith through myself. As long as I believe in God I felt like I was doing the right thing. I haven't found my religion yet. But I will tell you what lead for me to believe in God.

I used to believe in the Jewish faith... I still believe in some of the stories... but over time there was this period in my life where I was an atheist. I was giving up on life. I had become very depressed and I didn't know what to do with myself. My thoughts towards other people were becoming very negative. I kept on having faith in myself and hoping that some spiritual force would drive me to still have faith in humanity. I kept on thinking "if god really exists, why is my life so miserable?" Then, I started to change my attitude toward life when someone told me that I should have a positive attitude toward life, and, since then I've been having more faith in humanity, more faith in myself, and more faith in God because I feel that I have been rewarded for my faith.

That's how I come to have had my spiritual values.

I have a few reasons as to why people chose to disbelieve in God.

1. People don't like believing in God because they think since there are people suffering in the world that God must be evil. There are people that will say Africa is one of these places where people are suffering.

2. Other people like having complete control of their life. They don't like feeling that destiny or fate plays a role with any part of their life.

3. There are people that will doubt God because they think evolution disproves God's existence.

Glad to have you back



I agree and disagree. Yes science does follow the scientific method. Some scientists haven't seen God and thus don't believe but I am quite sure there are many many more regular average Joe's that came to this conclusion by themselves so to blame science for that is a bit wild IMO.

On the other hand, again religion does the same thing. We have some proof that evolution could have occured and that stem cells could help but some religious folks are so entrenched in their ways that they refuse to let progress happen.



Actually if I have read this right I think we can agree here.



What makes me think people feel shunned is their telling me they feel shunned. Their reasons are various but sort of center around the same thing. God isn't listening. That is their explination of course a bit paraphrased to wrap up the instances I have heard for you.



And in all reality I couldn't be happier but your experience will always differ from anyone elses. I know people who have been conencted to the church their whole life and are in wonderful shape and I know people in the same boat who have had nothing but strife



I'm with you but can we prove them wrong yet? I haven't seen a shred of real concrete evidence to give them and say, "No, He does exist and here is proof." One of the things that bothers me is when people say He does exist and here is why. Then they procede to quote scripture. It drives me up the wall because that isn't proof.

In the great movie Biloxy Blues, a character says that "something magical happens when you write something down, it becomes truth. People think, 'why would someone have gone through the trouble of writing it if it weren't true?'"

I love this line because it really solidifies my point. How do we honestly know that some guy didn't write that over a time and publish it when he was just making it up and to be fair, how do I honestly know that God didn't literally write that through a person and it is truth? Neither of us, if we are being honest, can answer that with a big degree of certainty. This of coure is where faith enters as you well know.



I absolutely agree. It's scary sometimes to think we don't have the control but I can't disagree here



And people will continue to doubt evolution due to their belief in God. I think it's so ignorant to discount either side with no real knowledge in such manners. I still believe a divine force started life as we know it and now we control the rest.

-Kyo

reply to post by KyoZero

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Okay, maybe blaming science for people’s disbelief in God would be stretching it a bit. I don’t understand why these religious folks would go out of their way to prevent progress because of some newfound discoveries that might prove beneficial to all of humanity.






Yes, I think you have read this right. My belief is that there are way too many interpretations of religious texts and because there is no definite interpretation for what God is that all people share. That that’s why there are people that think God doesn’t exist unless like the God makes himself/herself appear in front of them.



I think they think that they expect God to solve all of their problems for them, so, when they want faith from God, they ask God for a prayer “I want to go out with this girl” and nothing happens, they blame God for not listening. Perhaps they might ask God a prayer like “I want a new promotion” and they get none so they assume God wasn’t listening. I don’t think God is completely omnipotent… I like to think that God comes here to our plane of existence every now and then to check up on how things are going and uses divine intervention like when it would be needed. For something trivial like a first date… that would be something God has programmed in like all of our lives… and God wouldn’t listen to requests for divine intervention for that. So they get fed up with this, and, they denounce their belief in God, since they don’t think God “listened”.












I think we can. But they wouldn’t listen. In order to prove them wrong we would have to have a list of all of the developments and progress that Africa has made with the last century and we would say like “See, God’s listening to the people in Africa, the United States is helping, and so is the WTO!” But they would just say, that they’re doing that for political gain, and that it’s only natural for Africa to develop and make progress as a nation, and that there are still starving people in Africa. We can’t be able to prove them wrong yet because they see God as being all loving. Under their model of belief, they see that if evil exists, and if God is in control of the world, then God must be evil, and they don’t want to believe in God for that reason. They think that God wouldn’t want evil to exist, so, if God didn’t stop the evil from existing, than they think that God must not exist at all.


Yes this is true of all faiths, but, we also are aware of spiritual phenomena’s that transcend reality like ghosts, shadow people, the hatman, aliens/UFO’s, dreaming… out of body experiences… and the list goes on. Of course we know that all faith and religion were created by humans. Yet my point lies within that idea that because there are spiritual phenomena’s that exist and strange things in this world do happen that there very well indeed could be truth to various religion and different kinds of faiths people have.












I honestly don’t understand why people doubt evolution because of their belief in God. If anything, I think that evolution would allow them to have a stronger belief in God, because it solidifies the idea that humans were made in God’s image. Because we are smarter and more capable than any other species on the planet and we are because of evolution the entire theory of evolution should PROVE God.

I have a slightly different belief. I believe a divine force created the Universe and comes back to use divine intervention on us when there is too much chaos. As you know, with chaos comes order. When our planet becomes too chaotic, that is when, I believe that this divine force comes back and brings it back to a slightly more ordered state.

Let me say once again this is the best conversation have had here. Don't get me wrong alot of other conversations ae great but the sheer calmness of it all despite that fact that we disagree on many key points amazes me.

So then...back to the pit of battle! :-p

I almost feel like I SHOULD flame you just to be consistent :-p

I HATE YOU AND ALL THE THINGS YOU LIKE!!!

nah...just not me (hope you get at least a little laugh at that)

ok then...



Some may feel threatened. Who knows



Couldn't agree more my friend.



Let me make this one a two parter.

Frist off...I completely agree that in some and maybe even many cases you are absolutely right. I watch the reality show Big brother every year. It's my guilty little pleasure and every year I hear somebody say "God wants me to win this game." My response is, "Really? He took the time to assure you win a gameshow?"

Now on the other hand I also know a few of those cases are cases where they feel shunned by God in much more dire crises as well. Constant death and watching people taken away from you (their words not mine) can definately seem like you are shunned and give you a bleak outlook on...well actually ANY religion and deity. I had alot of deep down soul-bearing and important questions I asked God and the church and in neither case were any of my questions or plights answered. Now don't get me wrong here, I don't think a deity is to be used for foolish requests like the lottery. I think they are there to help you find your path but in mine and a few other situations he didn't do anything to guide us there.



I will admit that , be this considered weak-minded or not, I need proof. This may be the one thing we still and probably always will disagree on. However I think I see a very vivid issue here. I think I am not explaining myself well enough so pelase allow me to attempt again.

I referred to my sunflower seeds the other night. I held them and...well you read it. So what I am saying is that those sunflowers seeds existed and I have proof. Real and actual, physical proof. I could show them to you or let you hold the bag and shake it or, and this is more like my style, give you some to enjoy as well. I think it's safe to say with those actions I have proven that I have...well had sunflower seeds.

Now God on the other hand can't be shown to me, I can't feel him physically and I cannot smell him or touch him or taste his presence so to many, be them scientist or just thinkers he hasn't been proven to exist. Now we can see that the WTO has helped the African nations with food and medicine but again we can prove that the WTO exists. We can visit their headquarters and watch them as they, say...I dunno, plant seeds or teach a class but we can't prove God's existence to each other because until he physically proves himself, or in my case, Isis proves herself physically, we can't show each other and make the other not have any doubt. There is no proof that God performed miracles by say, laying down a monsoon to reopen valuable crop land in Africa because it could have been a coincidence. That was point and of course if you need more clarification I am always happy to provide.



And here we agree once again. The issue I have is that who is to say the people who experienced the ghosts didn't have a powerful psychosomatic reaction due to an internal medical force? Now I will admit right here and now that I do believe in ghost and spirits and such. I have had an experience or two that leads me to believe they are out there but how do I prove it to a skeptic or even another believer?



Leaving all sarcasm aside I am very interested to hear your ideas on this.



This is one I can see myself conceding as well. I actually do wonder if the ultimate force hasn't had it's hand in a few events so actually I think we can agree here now that I've had some times to think.

As always, looking forward to response

-Kyo