--- Calling all Christians ---

Hi Everyone,

First of all this isn't really a conspiracy as such although I'm sure that sort of spin could be put on it.

I'd like to talk about Christianity (although I'm targetting Christianity, this argument can be applied to any religion)

Simply put... Why do you believe in it? Why do you believe there's a God ? Why do you devout your life to something that you have absolutely no proof of being true??

Personally, I believe Christianity/Religion was invented for two main reasons:

1.) As a comfort blanket ;

Think about it, no one enjoys/likes the thought of themselves or theyre loved ones dying (Well no one sane anyway ) Religion eradicates the problem of death to those who believe in it, its a nice reassuring thought to believe that when you die, you will actually go to a better place and anyone who you have ever loved will be there with you.

This sort of explains suicide bombers, they believe if they die in God's name then they will live in heaven with mighty banquets and 7 virgin wifes!

2.) A form of control ;

Anybody remeber the ten commandments, sound like an effective way of controlling a population to me, if you could "put the fear of god into someone" pun intended then hopefully they won't do any wrong. Let's make people believe if they do something wrong they'll go to hell.

If I told you I had something in my hand that could make anyone an instant millionaire, but you couldnt see it, touch it, smell it, taste it or hear it, and surprise surprise it never made no one a millionaire, would you still believe me?

Why believe in something that you have no proof of it being true, you never have done and you never will???

I'm looking forward to the subjective responses "I know God is real because in my time of need I prayed to him, then things got better"
Well in answer to any replies as such, people go through hard times, everyone does, its a fact of life, but 90% these hardships do clear up and get better, life moves on, praying to the old man upstairs won't help.

Now, I'm not saying I do not believe in a God as such, because I do believe there is a higher entity that us out there somewhere, but I definately do not believe in Christianity and the Bible.

I concede that Jesus was a real living individual, and some of the things in the bible must be based on something. But I do not agree with the "If I tell a lie I'll go to hell"

Someone tell me how they KNOW God exists and guess what? No one will be able too, because no one KNOW'S he exists, they just think he does.
And just because you think something is real doesnt nescessarily make it so.

Looking forward to your responses.

P.S. I do not mean to offend anyone with this post.



[edit on 29/7/08 by Death_Kron]

[edit on 29/7/08 by Death_Kron]

[edit on 29/7/08 by Death_Kron]

Well said, my son. With love, all things are possible, Jesus is living proof.

reply to post by Death_Kron

---

Hi DK,

Everyone has different experiences and tales to tell. In my case it was about 3 years of reading, studying and mulling over the Bible. What initially convinced me was three factors:

Firstly countless Old Testament prophecies, types and symbols revealed to people in dreams, visions, coherent utterances over which they had no control, plus visitations from heavenly beings - over the course of millennia - concerning the coming Messiah were fulfilled in the life of one man.

Secondly in-depth study and reflection on the words of Christ himself. No man ever spoke like that man, (and even his enemies acknowledged that).

Thirdly Christ's resurrection from the dead. It had been hinted at in the Old Testament, and Christ specifically taught his (unbelieving) disciples that he would allow himself to be crucified, then rise from the dead. He explained that the purpose was to fulfill all the types and symbols of the O.T. sacrificial system in such a way as to enable those who'd broken their God's moral Law to be reconciled to their Maker, both in this life and the next, which will be eternal - only, in contrast to the Old Testament ways, what he would do would suffice for the eternal forgiveness of all his people on the basis of what he would do in one day.

Then he did it.

I will end with just four Old Testament Messianic prophecies (all given between 500 and 700 years before Christ). Perhaps they will provide food for thought and reflection. God bless.



Isaiah 9:1d,2,6&7


Zechariah 3:8&9


Psalm 22:1,16c-18


Isaiah 53:5&6


Truly God is wonderful.

I think the explanation for religion found in The Terra Papers is quite telling. Although the Papers start out sounding like bad scifi, the further one reads the more sense they make.

I nearly quit reading them myself but persevered, wondering what the point was and captivated by the back story:

In 1947, a UFO crashed on Hopi land, and some of the tribe rescued an alien named Bek'Ti. They got him/her out and away before the military arrived. They nursed him/her back to health and developed a trust. Bek'ti, in exchange for the kindness, taught them the history of Earth.

The Hopi kept the information secret, but chose some in each generation to teach what Bek'Ti taught them. The author's grandfather was amongst those who rescued Bek'Ti and helped teach the author.

When Von Daniken came out with his stuff, the author asked permission to tell the parts of the story that Von Daniken had come close on, and as a result, he wrote The Terra Papers for a college class.

They were produced on a manual typewriter, and have typos, missed words, and are otherwise rough, but the author illustrated the work himself.

By the time I got to the end, I was sure that what I had just read was the closest version of what happened that we have. I was also shaking from a radical paradigm shift (having started out as an "alien agnostic").

But the question of religion and why it is promoted amongst us (in a number of forms) was answered quite well.

I recommend reading the Papers. The link is in my sig.

reply to post by Amaterasu

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Hi Amaterasu

I'm sorry to have to break this to you, but Von Daniken is a well-known, convicted fraudster. Here is a (sad) excerpt from his Wiki entry:



There's more, but I'm trying to avoid an excessive quotation.

Here's the link: en.wikipedia.org...





[edit on 29/7/08 by pause4thought]

load of bullocks.

You shall have no other gods before me
You shall not make for yourself an idol
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
Honor your father and mother
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
You shall not covet your neighbor's house or wife.

how does any of these differ from any law that any country would institute to keep order?

are you seriously suggesting that laws of a government that keep order are bad? give it a rest. the whole religion is control this is a load of tripe. people still do what they want to do no matter what any religion tells them.

What has he got to do with anything? Yes, he wrote about gods from a space race. But his personal character is irrelevant to what Robert Morning Sky was taught and then wrote in The Terra Papers.

It was merely because Von Daniken came out with stuff that was close to the truth (more or less) that Morning Sky was allowed to write of some of the things Von Daniken had addressed.

So I don't care if Von Daniken was a weasel or a saint. His character is not the point.

Six of those are good ideas, and do promote a peaceful society. It's the first four that are the control factors. Having put those in, and promoting a priesthood, "God" could be attributed with saying any damned thing the PTB wanted Him to to get the people to do what the PTB wanted out of them.

And, in fact, that was the purpose of religion.

When you have a dream, and you tell someone about it, ultimately the only witness to that dream is you and your word in telling about it.

In order for you to understand any utterance from another mans mouth, you must first believe them. Since you do not know me, and since you have no basis of belief to take to heart the words I type here, then the answer to your question is self fulfilling. Even though I tell you I KNOW, you will not believe.

I KNOW, not on the basis of Faith. I KNOW not on the basis of wanting to believe. I KNOW on the basis of witness. Witness means Witness.

Now if you read the Bible, The Word of God comes in a number of ways. In a burning bush, in a cloud, in a cool breeze, and eventually as a man who walked as Jesus Christ.

The Word of God is the Truth of God. And whether its a burning bush, a dark cloud, or Jesus Christ himself: The Truth is Truth is the Truth.
Whether you choose to accept the Word noted by Moses, or the words from the lips of Jesus Christ himself, ultimately its up to you as to whether you recognize the truth, in his way, which is the life.

Peace

The Terra Papers have good information about Jesus (EA-SU). And much else that has to do with religion - which should never be confused with spirituality. From religion springs dogma: commandments and such. From spirituality springs love, healing and understanding.



Interesting thing, that word, Word. The Papers also discuss that.



May it be soon a reality.

so you believe in a higher power what proof do you have for that, just as much as I have for being a christian.

one thing that makes me believe is that my dad has 8% of one lung left, he had surgery on his back friday came home saturday, no pain and wasnt on pain killers, went to church sunday. Other than that I felt that this is closer to the truth than many other things out there and thou there be hypocrits and money-grubbers in it there also are many good people.

I think a lot of people fail to realize, when they ask people of faith how they believe in something that they can not proove, that Jesus' whole testimony was about the truth. It is the ultimate disclosure.

So to those who keep asking, you have one of two choices. 1. Challenge yourself or 2. Forget you read these words and live a life of possibly pondering the ramifications of the choice you choose to make.

You do realize that he clearly states he will manifest the truth to you?

Either you want the truth for yourself or you don't.

If you decide to challenge yourself, then carefully consider the opening words in the Gospel of Thomas:

"Those who seek, should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. And after they have reigned they will rest."

Maybe you can't handle the truth.Lol

so you like how it sounds and suddenly it becomes truth? if you pay attention to what you are saying, you would realize that you are not being very objective.




first of, you do realize that isrealites didnt believe in a hell.

second, what did the PTB ask of the people that was so horrible?

i mean think about what your saying. there are alot of threads on this (conspiracy) website about government programs to control people and and mind control schemes. and in some ways some of it is true. any government that has power would want to keep it without having to deal with those pesky revolutions everytime the people feel they are entitled to something.

but there are somethings you are ignoring.

- government systems back then were monarchies they had all the power they needed already. from tribe to country. words like "equality" and "rights" didnt exist then. the king already had all the power he could ask for, his word was absolute. and even when he was a bad king, the people put up with it (until recently)

government systems today are different. there is an amount of answering for their actions that forces them to hide things they dont want the public seeing.

- second you are degrading the importance of that "comfort blanket". its not that simple. people of the world have a ingrown need to worship. theres something deep in us that is concerned with spiritual things to a point that it permeates all societies. calling it a "comfort blanket" is to ignore its full effect.

i think that you heard a few others on this form that sounded good to you because they "tickled" your ears. whether its the romance of your beliefs that holds you or because you really cant be bothered to investigate im not sure. but to start a thread using buzzwords doesnt help.

i agree, certain religions are designed for control, especially in monetary regards (scientology, catholic church) but all religion? i dont agree

Good twisting of my words there; good edit hack job. That is not at all what I said when taken in context.

I said that it was because VD came out with stuff that was close to the truth that the author of The Terra Papers, Robert Morning Sky, was allowed to divulge what was taught to the Hopi by Bek'Ti back in 1947.

Geez.



What's that got to do with things? I didn't mention hell. I used irony in my terms as a literary device.



Um... Not think for oneself? Labor to give money to the church? Make people feel spiritually obligated? War with those that had other beliefs? I dunno. You tell me what the advantages were.



I give great deal of thought to most everything I say.



True.



Uh... And how did they keep control? The Priesthood was indispensable to them, those monarchs. In fact, often, they were part of the Priesthood. Let's face it, if the people didn't like the control, weren't taught that they should just accept their lot in life, weren't given to think that God had selected these rulers... Many a ruler might have found themselves deposed. So, no... I don't think I am ignoring this.



True.



I disagree. People have an inborn spirituality that is bent to dogmatic worship as an outlet, and it is because they can then be controlled that anyone bothers to bend them thusly.



I'm beginning to suspect that you are confusing me with another poster. I never said, "comfort blanket." Be that as it may, yes. We are all spiritual beings. Some are more aware of that than others. But as I pointed out in another post, spirituality brings forth love, healing and understanding. From religion springs dogma and intolerance.



Ahhh. Yes, you definitely have me confused here with the OP. I have investigated many paths, and then stepped outside the perspecive of paths to see the whole. I did not start this thread but came in to recommend The Terra Papers for a view of religion. And then to respond to others' postings with my own view.



Virtually all, I'm saying. And especially the religions (all the "One True Religion") springing from Abraham. War is a good thing for the PTB, as they have a reason to control us, and make money hand over fist. Thus the encouragement to religious fervor against others believing differently.

Again, the link to The Terra Papers is in my sig. Read, if you will, the whole, in detail. I also have a glossary useful in following the characters and concepts (the Papers were not written for literary purposes, so they are sometimes difficult to follow) here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I had to post it twice because of an inability to edit the first try. Look for the version with bold initial terms all the way through the post. Same info, but easier to read.

[edit on 7/30/2008 by Amaterasu]

it wasnt a hack job, it was me misunderstanding what you written. i apologize



hell IS a form of control for religious people. hellfire is not biblically supported but leaders use it to scare the parishioners into filling the pews.

like i said, your not completely wrong. i just dont think ALL religion is for that purpuse



most religions do tell you to think for yourself. and thats not just from religions like Hinduism or taoism. the bible too tells its followers to meditate on its teachings and to think about it.

just because a majority of the people in the world dont think for themselves, doesnt mean that thats what religion teaches.

labor to give money to the church isnt either. the bible has always taught to give because you want to. even the jews with their 10% tithe, how is that different from taxes?

war is not something all religions advocate. just because the leaders have an agenda. noowhere in the bible is a christian suppose to go to war for any reason.

the thing is you are mixing up corrupt religion with true and well meaning religions. not all are the same



consider this. the jews went for some time without a king. they had the freedom to rule themselves. the laws that were given them basically fell into 2 principles, love god, love your neighbor. the priesthood wasnt "calling the shots" they made sacrifices, that was about it. law was maintained by the people themselves. this for all intensive purposes was an anarchist's dream. self rule (except for the worship god part, im not sure how anarchist today would like that) even with all that they still demanded a king.

world was different back then, people had different priorities and beliefs. "king" wasnt the four letter word it is today.



i dont understand.



yes i am, im confusing you with the op, i apologize



then what is you definition of religion?



it sounds if one person believes something, then its spiritual and wholesome, if someone else agrees, now its a money making scheme with evil intentions to control people?

again, i get the feeling your judging all on a few (or alot) of bad apples.



yesh im not feeling too well today, i apologize



again, i agree... but you'll find that alot of these faiths are not following the bible. so its no surprise they are corrupt

[edit on 30-7-2008 by miriam0566]

Apology accepted. [smile]



True. It's just that you addressed me as if I brought hell up, when all I had said was "Six of those are good ideas, and do promote a peaceful society. It's the first four that are the control factors. Having put those in, and promoting a priesthood, "God" could be attributed with saying any damned thing the PTB wanted Him to to get the people to do what the PTB wanted out of them."



I suspect that it was through a priesthood interpretation, in an effort to control the people, that "hell" was created.



No, ALL religion isn't for that purpose. A lot of it is a mixture of efforts to address our spirit nature with dogma overlaying for control purposes. Some religions have less in the way of dogma, some more.



Not really - at least the priesthood seldom sees it that way. Sure, you are supposed to meditate on, and find a way to accept what is in the Bible. NOT think entirely for yourself, outside of the Bible. BIG difference.



Well... Any religion with dogma, and especially the dogma that says it is the One True Religion, confines one's thinking. No, none say outright, "Don't think for yourself." But most say, "If you aren't thinking THIS way (whatever dogma THIS might be), you are thinking evil thoughts!"



You do know that taxes are a form of slavery? So, in truth, there is no difference. The difference is in whom one is a slave to.



No, few religions come out and say, "Go to war! Its GOOD!" But there are those who have interpreted the Bible to mean it's ok to kill "heathen," and the priesthood has, on occasion, encouraged this... Muslims (some of them) believe it's ok to kill the "infidels." Regardless, most religions, and particularly the Abrahamic ones have been interpreted to mean war is good in the name of their God.

But war has ALWAYS been promoted by those who would supply warring nations with what they need. And religion has been used to control the people, maneuvering them into frenzies over religious issues, using religion as a control mechanism. And then the war suppliers get rich(er), and they then have more control, either overtly or subvertly. (Money = power.)



How do you decide which religion is "true...?" That is something we have been going to war over for eons. ALL religions have well-meant intentions within the dogma. All have some potential to be corrupt. Any religion that has a priesthood is subject to corruption.



You don't believe the priesthood was guiding and directing them...? Maybe not overtly, but I am willing to bet a "good Hebrew" asked a rabbi about choices he or she was struggling with. They saw it, perhaps, as asking God for help. Next best thing, anyway.

And, really... We don't know why they demanded a king. Perhaps the priesthood quietly agitated for one (that they could use to increase their subtle control...)



We are spiritual beings. The closer we are to love, healing, understanding and compassion, the closer we are to our spiritual self. Some, who are distant from their spiritual self, have seen the advantages of developing dogma that uses, to benefit themselves, that yearning for a complete understanding of our spirit.

War suppliers are one such group. People who set themselves up as "closer to God (Spirit)" are another (these would be the priesthood).

Do you see now what I mean?



No... It is fine if many believe something. It only becomes evil when they are beset with a priesthood that they are commanded to slave for (tithe, or other monetary expectations). Because money entices love for it, and the love of money is, as we should know, the root of all evil.

The Quakers have a good structure (though I question their dogma), where there is no priesthood. They all meet as equals, and no group is "closer to God." One of the few religious groups I would not lump into the "Control Religions." At least mostly.



Heh. I never said ALL religion is evil. I did say the majority of religions were set up to control people. Any religion with a priesthood was set up, in part, to control people.



Well... I have heard so many interpretations, translations that differ substantially, and know many translations were done with control as the objective (King James!), than I don't think I would know whether they are following "The Bible" or not.

I know that reincarnation was deliberately taken from the Bible. I know that the books of Thomas and Mary were not included in the Bible (just to name two).

So what IS the Bible? How can I tell whether some group or another is following it?

Reply to Amaterasu

Jesus said

Matthew 7:16&17

Those who are sincere disciples seek to imitate Christ and serve those around them.

Those who are out to mislead and exploit you seek your money and your service.

The former are found in true churches, the latter in cults and organizations. It's necessary to exercise discernment as to what people are about, as Christ himself suggested. However no matter how much falsehood abounds, if you keep seeking you'll find a true group of sincere followers of Christ.

reply to post by Death_Kron

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IMO you are assuming quite a lot when you say we don't have any proof of it.

[edit on 30-7-2008 by Bombeni]

Hmmm. What if I find a group that is awesomely unselfish, loving and helpful, that is compassionate and concerned - in other words, the fruit is of true spirit - but...

They hold no religious tenets whatsoever?

I am going to guess you will tell me something is wrong with them for failing to have connections to Jesus.

And to be frank...if such a group is "damned," I can't get behind the God doing the damning.

What proof do you have? I'm quite curious.