In Religion, what's more important?

In religious terms, who would you guys see as 'a better person'?

1. Someone who truely believes and has faith in their religion, but does not strictly follow the rules set down by the religion.

or

2. Someone who does not believe in religion at all, but lives their life in accordance to the rules.

In your opinion, who qualifies more for heaven?

I would see neither as a better/worse person. As long as bother persons were living their lives the way that makes them happy.(without harming others) That's all that matters.

reply to post by Acidtastic

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But what if that persons happy, but making a negative impact on the surrounding world?

You mean like Christians?

reply to post by PeaceUk

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It depends.
Kind of hard to determine, based on this little information.
It could happen that someone could live where they are surrounded by false religion and they are wise enough to not accept it.
God could make a special case of that person and put an understanding in their heart to follow God, without ever knowing God's truth, from another person.

In the first example, it also depends.
Someone could be raised in a true religion, but not have it in their heart to go out of their way to follow it.

So, depending on the exact situation, the apparently nonreligious person could be better than the apparently religious person.

[edit on 26-7-2008 by jmdewey60]

how can a person who doesnt "follow the rules" say they truly have faith and believe in their religion?

How indeed! So miriam, why don't you kill homosexuals? They are after all an abomination in Gods eyes and deserve nothing but death.

Saying that this concept was apart of the old law won't do either as there are numerous accounts within the New Testament that clearly says the old law should still be followed after Jesus.

LUKE 16:17
MATTHEW 5:17-19
2 TIMOTHY 3:16
1 PETER 24:25

Why don't you follow all the laws of the Old Testament, Miriam? hmmm?


[edit on 26-7-2008 by SilentGem]

reply to post by SilentGem

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It says "correcting" not punishing.



[edit on 26-7-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by SilentGem

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what is it to you? does it really matter to you what i do, or who i am?

do you know what religion i belong to if any? tell me whether i stand condemned or not since you seem so sure.

As far as I can tell you're a Christian of one form or another.

you know silentgem its a simple question really. how can a person claim to believe in something they dont follow?

i dont understand why that would lead you on this tangent of insulting me. the fact is, you dont know what i believe in.

Why do you perceive it as an insult?

What do you believe in then, if you’re not a Christian?

reply to post by SilentGem

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You could believe in God and Jesus and not want to call yourself a Christian.
Maybe that is difficult to understand.
If someone else, or a big powerful church used that name to slaughter tens of thousands of Innocent people, how good is that name, anymore?
Would you like to use the battle cry of soldiers in an unjust war against the people of the earth, as your name?
Please give her a break and be a little sensitive to other's beliefs.

First of all, I don't think the OP is asking the right questions. It seems to me that there is a question behind the questions in this thread.

The real question is....what is more important in religion? Is it the philosophe or the theology?

Most people these days would be happy as hell if religious people, christians in particular it seems, would make the philosophe more important than the theology. To do so, however, would defeat the purpose of religion.

The purpose of religion is to understand and connect with God. Or for all of you new agers and relativists, "the source". Therefore, the philosophe in religion comes second in importance as the theology is actually the main point of the matter. Or in many cases, the philosophe is a only a result of the theology.

However, in the secular world, it is possible to have a philosophe without any religion at all. Which further illustrates my point.

In religion, the theology should always come before the philosophe. Otherwise, there is no point to the religion.

reply to post by PeaceUk

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Purely from a Biblical standpoint, here are my answers:



Before I begin to answer any questions from the OP, I think it would be good to let the Bible, itself, define religion:

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

...which, interestingly enough, seems to be said, also, in the OT (please read verses 10-20 for a better context):

Isaiah 1:16-17 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

"Religion", as defined by the Bible is as James says:
"...To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. "

Back to the OP question #1:



I believe that Jesus describes a man just like you've described. This man HEARD what Jesus said and didn't do anything.
He DID hear it, he may even have fooled/lied to himself into a confession that he 'believed it', but he DID nothing ABOUT it:

Matt 7:24-27 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

The 'wise man' above both 'hears' and DOES what Jesus said to do.
The 'foolish man' above 'hears' but does NOT do what Jesus said to do.

Some, that are reading this, may say, "Yes, but the OP asked about someone who does not STRICTLY follow the rules set down by the religion".

...and my answer is that I'm not quite sure the OP specifically asked his/her question in such manner. If he/she DID, I'll try to answer to it. (If requested.)

Back to the question #1 and my answer:
The person in question #1 is the 'foolish man' of Matt 7:26.



No such person exists, save for Jesus, who is God (and I'm not):

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;



Neither.

The OP posed a false dilemma from a Biblical standpoint. I'm don't believe the OP intended it that way, but from a Biblical standpoint, it must be defined that way.

1 John 4:6

Both equally qualify for heaven...

However the one that believes but doesn't follow is less likely to reach a heaven like state of mind.

That is quite harsh, my dear friend. Not all Christians are there to make negative impacts on the world. I believe that is those who take a more fundamentalist approach to their religion.

Being Christian myself, I don't follow all of the rules ((being gay and all)) but I still have faith in my religion and try my best to contribute positively to humanity.

Plus I could say that you are helping add to the negative impact to the world, seeing as your comment is very ignorant and just shows that you do not have an open mind.

awesome post btw.

i just wanted to add something about this passage.

matt 24:[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

24:9 was talking about the signs of the times. persecution from the devil and his world is part of being a true christian.

eph 6:[10] Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
[11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.[12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

wile - 1: a trick or stratagem intended to ensnare or deceive (m-w.com)

wile suggests a coordinated and purposed attack against true christians.

whats interesting about the passage in matthew is that jesus is giving us the formula to fend that off.

when we build our house (build our faith) and you dont choose a good foundation (obeying the commandments of jesus), then when the waters come (persecution), our house will fall.

at what point does one's faith crack. i visited the holocaust museum once and there was testimony given by one of the survivors in a video that really disturbed me. he said that at on point, they strung up some of the jewish prisoners on upside down crosses. then they took him (the survivor) and some other jews and made them pour boiling oil on the ones on the crosses from rafters above. they had to do this while singing christmas carols. if they didnt, they were shot.

its a horrible situation, and he did it. he killed brothers in his faith because he was afraid to die. he regretted it. but in the end, his faith was built on sand.

the experience affected me. it showed me that god's laws help us to act like humans when we are pressured to act like animals.