Non Christians What If The Bible Is True?

Yet belief in God just isn't good enough, by your belief. One must accept Christ as the Lord and Saviour, right? That makes how many billions of people in this world wrong? And that's just the ones who are alive today. Common sense...I'm quite surprised you even brought that into a debate when you're arguing on the side of Christianity.

And that aside, since when was the common accepted truth necessarily the truth? The majority of the world once had "faith" that the Earth was flat, but look how that turned out! Your idea of common sense is somewhat skewed, I think. What you call "common sense" I call fear of the unknown and lack of courage to think for yourself and take responsibility for your own life. (In other words, "faith".)



I touched on this earlier in the thread, but I'm actually more of a pantheist than an atheist. I have to say atheist in order to separate myself from the stigmas of theists, (including deists), and pagans. I do not believe there is any "supreme being" watching over us or who created the universe or anything. I believe in God, but my definition of God is entirely different than that of any major religion. I believe that God is in all things, and more specifically, that we are each gods ourselves. I believe that we create our own realities, (universes), and we control whether we receive eternal glory or damnation. I believe that the only person we need to seek forgiveness from is ourselves.

I believe that I am God. I even have it tattooed on my back in Latin: "Ego Sum Deus". (I hope that's what it means anyway!) So I do believe that we will have to answer to God, but I think that that day is here today; every moment of our lives we have to answer to ourselves: to God. I really despise the Christian idea of putting off Judgment to some day after we die. Judgment is happening all the time, and the person who you have to go through to be in Heaven is yourself.

You are Jesus. You are God. And so am I. And so is everybody else. That's what I believe. No book is going to tell me what's right or wrong, or how to live my life. And no supernatural "father" is standing in the way of me getting punished or glorified for my deeds, only I can do that. That's my belief anyway...

[edit on 17/3/08 by an3rkist]

I think you are mixing up "faith" and "trust". I do not have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, I trust that it will. Trust is based on a history or pattern of events that support and give evidence to the "belief" that something will continue to happen. Faith is a radical form of trust, because it is one which disregards the fact that there is no evidence, historical or otherwise, to give legitimate reasons to your sense of "trust".

I think that faith is the most degrading and counter-productive attribute any single person's personality on the face of this planet and in all of history could ever have. To me, faith is a sin worse than murder or rape, and is a literal crime against humanity and a crime against the individual. It is dangerous beyond description, and destroys the wisdom and knowledge that I hold dear. Faith corrodes the sense of reason and logic and self-discovery like rust on a car. I do not mean to attack you personally, or even to attack the faithful as a collective; I'm just explaining how I view faith. The day that I have faith is the day I abandon the things I hold most true and dear. I hope that it never happens. A life of faith is a living Hell to me.

[edit on 17/3/08 by an3rkist]

reply to post by an3rkist

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You know what? I feel your pain and hear the anger in your words. I am sorry to have upset you. I never claimed to be perfect or scholarly...am probably the least of each. I obviously offended you by offering a hand. If that was taken as an offense by you, I am truly sorry. There is nothing I can do.

"Christians"

by Maya Angelou

"A woman's heart should be so hidden in Christ
that a man should have to seek Him first to find her."

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not shouting "I'm clean livin'"
I'm whispering "I was lost, Now I'm found and forgiven."

When I say... "I am a Christian" I don't speak of this with pride.
I'm confessing that I stumble and need Christ to be my guide.

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not trying to be strong.
I'm professing that I'm weak and need His strength to carry on.

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not bragging of success.
I'm admitting I have failed and need God to clean my mess.

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not claiming to be perfect,
My flaws are far too visible but, God believes I am worth it.

When I say... "I am a Christian" I still feel the sting of pain..
I have my share of heartaches, so I call upon His name.

When I say... "I am a Christian" I'm not holier than thou,
I'm just a simple sinner Who received God's good grace, somehow!

Pretty is as Pretty does... but beautiful is just plain beautiful!


You don't have to like me, you can feel as indifferent toward me as you want. But it doesn't change my *faith*, *trust* and it won't change my *belief* and it won't change my *heart*, *mind*, or whatever else you want to label it. I have done my work in finding myself and am confident in my decision.

You have obviously given up on the world. And I can't say I blame you with the world in the condition it is. But this website is just a microcosm indication of the rest of the world and the state it is in...and I truly feel for it.

I am truly saddened.

I_R

BTW, I'm stopping here. I'm done with it. It's futile to attempt to love someone who refuses to be loved.




[edit on 3/17/08 by idle_rocker]

[edit on 3/17/08 by idle_rocker]

Ah, yes. The classic Christian "I'm sorry I can't save you from yourself" guilt trip. I recall being trained to say such things to try to win over the weak-willed. Act like a wounded parent in hopes your victim's sense of childish supplication to authority will win them over.

reply to post by The Nighthawk

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We're not trained. We don't go to Witnessing classes or salvation seminars to learn how to manipulate people.
We tell them the truth and pray for them.

Salvation is something that one has to accept all by themselves.
No tricks or doing it for them.


[edit on 18-3-2008 by Clearskies]

reply to post by idle_rocker

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It was not you that offended me; it was BigWhammy. I won't deny that I was in an angry mood when I replied to you, but I did not mean to get defensive toward you. I stand by what I said about faith, but perhaps I could have said it a little more tactfully, and at a time when I had had a chance to cool off from BigWhammy's comment. Geez, just thinking about it burns me to the core! Anyway, I hope I didn't offend you. I have taken no offense by you, despite what you may think. As I said I still stand by what I said about faith, but I hope you're not offended that for the most part, the Christianity thing is a lost cause on me. That ship sailed six years ago, and I haven't looked back since. (Well I have, but not in regret.)

I simply refuse to believe that anyone knows better than anyone else when it comes to things that are not verifiable, like God. And any person who claims that they're idea of what is God is better than anyone else's, and that I should believe them based on that logic alone, is going to be speaking to a brick wall. I've taken everything you've said with a grain of salt, but I've still listened. I'm open to the idea of myself being wrong, but I need something more than speculation and warm fuzzy feelings to convince me. In the words of the band Hoobastank from their song "Same Direction":



(Emphasis added)

Full lyrics



Of all the people who have tried to convince me of Christian beliefs, you have offended me the least. It seems that I'm the one who has offended you simply because I'm not faltering on my path that you consider wrong. I don't quite understand the Christian need to convert other people. I suppose most would claim they love us and are trying to save us, but I think there's something else going on. I don't dare speculate, though, because it would definitely offend you, and that's not what I'm here to do.



I find this ironic. I don't mean to be rude, but I have spent not one single second trying to convince you or anyone else of anything. All I have done is answer direct questions, and state my opinions and theories on various facets of the conversation at hand. We atheists, (generally speaking), have no desire to change anyone's beliefs. It doesn't hurt us for you to believe in God or the Bible or whatever you want. I don't care what you believe; if you wanna believe in God and Jesus more power to you. But I don't try to convince people to change their beliefs, that's the Christians' jobs.



You're wrong about this. True, I've given up on your world: the Christian one. I tried it most of my life and it failed miserably. I have moved on to what, for me, is a better world. One where I make my own decisions, I decide what's right and what's wrong, I take responsibility for my own actions and accept the respective consequences of them. I seek out the answers to life's most vexing questions using logic and reason as opposed to a book or prophet or priest telling me what to believe. I haven't given up on the world, I've just moved on to one that is better for me. And I'm sorry you're sad, but personally I'm overjoyed with my beliefs. I couldn't be happier! Don't be sad for me, for I have no regrets and I've made my choices and I'm willing to face whatever consequences will follow. This is what makes me happy. Period.



I guess I don't get your logic here. It seems unChristian at the very least, but more importantly I don't see where I refused to be loved. Just because I don't know Christ like you do doesn't mean I don't know love. And just because you're attempts to change what I believe or at least question my beliefs were in vain doesn't mean I didn't listen. Giving up is the only way to make anything futile, and you can quote me on that.

[edit on 18/3/08 by an3rkist]

I will simply reply to the title of this thread. Simply put, I would rather risk burning in hell for eternity then accept the Christian Bible, it's god and the atrocities it stands for.

And what if it is not true? Then you have wasted your life promoting ignorance and not denying it. If the Christian God does exist, then he is the embodiment of evil; before he created life, according to the bible, he saw exactly the pain and suffering his actions would create. Yet he followed through. Original sin? His is the original sin. Human life was the biggest mistake in history.

I will live my life deciding what I think is right, not anyone else. I will not conform, nor will i rebel. I will act according to my own beliefs, regardless of others actions, and find truth for myself.

And if God wishes to damn me for eternity for giving my all to making this world a better place, then so be it. My soul shall burn with pride.

You say "we tell them the truth and pray for them." What exactly is "truth" in the bible... please elaborate more. I find that the supposed "Book of Books" is a crock of bologna, and so far a very well cooked one, otherwise I doubt as many people would believe what that book is spewing.

You know, I said I wasn't going to post here again, and after this reply, I won't. You don't know me or anything about me OR my relationship to An3rkist. I said the things I said to An3rkist because we have built a sort of friendship through this thread. And, I told him I feel a special connection to him, mainly because he reminds me of myself at his age, even though I'm a woman. But your interjection here calling me a wounded parent is the most perverse I've seen in a while. Which would you rather prefer - a parent who loves you or one who despises you for what you are and disowns you? YOUR "childish supplicative" answer says more about you than it does me. But there again...that's your problem, not mine.

Peace be unto you.

[edit on 3/18/08 by idle_rocker]

It is always my intention to hear as many theories and possibilities as I can. Unfortunately for you, you are telling me a side of the story I have heard before, which is why it may seem as though I'm just not listening. I listened to what you had to say, and am still open to listen, however you would be hard-pressed to bring anything to light to me which I have not already heard and then discounted.

I have spent years debating and studying religions and philosophies, and the evidence that I've collected in my ponderings and research have led me to a firm conclusion that the Bible is not a book to live by, though it definitely has some decent moral value. Additionally, I have come to the firm conclusion that organized religion of any kind is a flawed institution. It would take an act of God to convince me to live my life based on a structured dogma or on the Bible. Those are two conclusions I have come to that I cannot see myself wavering from unless by some miracle. Everything else, (i.e. God, etc.), is made up of ideas, but not conclusions. I am open to ideas regarding these things, but the Bible and Christianity and organized religion as a whole have proven to me to be topics of debate that have died down to firm conclusions.



I, too, write lyrics. (Or try to anyway.) I picked those lyrics because they said - more eloquently than I could - exactly what I wanted to say. My faith is not placed in anything, as I have no faith. I'm a big fan of quoting other people when they speak what I am feeling, especially when it's in the form of a song.



My own defensive mode kicks in at the first sign of being preached to. This is, perhaps, based on stereotypes I have formed in my mind about Christians, based on my experiences with other Christians, and also based on things that I did when I was a Christian. I was raised in a particular denomination that requires members to attempt to convert people. My entire family to this day tries to convert me back, and even tries to convert my friends. And I used to do the same thing. Perhaps I am a lone atheist, but I do not wish to put any Christian into defensive mode. I enjoy debates about religion, but only to tell people what I believe and also because it helps me verbalize to myself what I believe. I could not care less if other people believe differently than me, in fact I think it would be quite a boring world if we all believed the same.



I would assume the atheists that called you stupid were rebel teenagers who do not actually know what to believe but just want to be non-conformists. But that's just an assumption. Either way, every group of people is going to have their bad eggs. I think, on the Christian side of things, you're a pretty good egg, though. I have not had good experiences having intellectual conversations with Christians in the past, though I have enjoyed ours immensely. And your intelligence level obviously exceeds most of the members on ATS, I dare say. (Probably because you're much older than most ATSers, but that doesn't change the fact that nobody here on ATS would be justified in calling you stupid.) Anyway, I guess I shouldn't try to speak for the whole of Atheism, especially since I do not claim to be a part of their religion. (Atheism has become a religion in and of itself, which is one of the reasons I do not claim to be a part of them.) I actually consider myself a pan-atheist, pantheist/atheist hybrid. Anyway...I'm straying off topic.




I suppose it would be hard for me to make you empathize, but from my point of view "caring" and "preaching to" are synonyms. Not literally, but in the context that you used them it was. I was not completely opposed to what you were doing, I was enjoying our conversation. Apparently when I became a little more blunt about my beliefs you assumed I was telling you to leave me alone. As I said, I am open to the idea of God, (though much less inclined to believe it), but I could not reach a conclusion on it based on faith. I prefer not knowing over blind belief. For some, blind belief works for them, and that's fine. For me, I'm more comfortable with just saying, "I don't know for sure, but I definitely doubt it."



I was not accusing you of being un-Christian based on you thinking it futile to debate, I was basing it on you saying it was futile to love somebody who refused to be loved. I was just subtly referring to the whole biblical idea of "love one another" or whatever. I just don't think it makes sense to not love somebody just cause they don't wanna be loved, in fact those are the people who probably need it most. (Not that that was going on anyway, though.)

And we don't want to be left alone necessarily, (at least I don't), but I don't want people to try and convert me. Debate and conversations are great! But I draw the line when people invite me to their church, or give me a Bible, or tell me to pray, or tell me to repent, or tell me I'm living an evil life. (Not that you did any of those things, I'm just telling you how I feel and where you may have gotten the idea we wanna be left alone.)

I'm sure it's hard for Christians to see the very fine line between conversing and converting, it is only one single letter after all. (My humor usually goes in one ear and out the other *sigh*) And it's probably different for each atheist. As for me, I won't even stop talking to a person or get hostile if they try and convert me. (Unless they get hostile and offensive, such as some of the posts in this thread.) I will get defensive when the preaching begins, but I will remain civil. (But perhaps what a Christian thinks is civil is different from what I think is; to be honest with you I've looked back at my last few replies and fail to see how I was at all hostile towards you or even how you could've thought that I was offended or anything before the first time you mentioned it. The only thing I can think is that you read my definition of "faith" and realized that I was a lost cause, or perhaps you took offense by it.)

Anyway, I hope you're not too disappointed in me and that we can still be friends! At no point have I intended to offend you or ignore the points you're making.

An3rkist, I truly like you and find you very endearing. I in no way wanted our friendship to end, and I felt you were shutting me out for some reason. The only thing I could think of was that I offered to get you those DVD's, and that maybe that had possibly turned you off. Perhaps it was my own mindset to that possibility that made me think you were angry with me and wanted me to leave you alone. I knew when I made that offer that you might take it as trying to convert you, so I probably set myself up for that one in my own mind.

But anyway, bygones are bygones and hopefully we learn and grow from each experience we have. And maybe other folks who might be reading these "sort of personal notes" can see that we are all cut from the same cloth, disagreements occur, but there is no reason to allow disagreements to come between two friends.

As you probably know, I do a little think of you as one of my children. I can't help but do that since I have children your age AND because I was so much like you when I was young.

I hope you do realize that most Christians mean well even when they preach because we see the world in a different light. And I know you were raised in an environment that would preclude you from having your own "thinking" as you grew up.

I do apologize for jumping to conclusions and hope we remain friends for a long time...if you can get past my caring ways and realize I truly mean well. I do understand why you feel as you do...I fought like heck when I was your age. You are young and many experiences are ahead of you. I hope that I'm there for you if you ever need me. Just kidding BTW, no one ever understands my humor either, so it must be a lyrics writer thing. Maybe we're related. lol

[edit on 3/19/08 by idle_rocker]

[edit on 3/19/08 by idle_rocker]

This is a good summary of this topic. It's worth a couple minutes.

What if the Bible is True

YouTube Link

Frankly I don't give a # what your relationship to An3rkist is or was. You made a direct attempt to manipulate someone using a guilt trip. What else would you call that? And if my calling BS on you for it is "perverse", you have an odd definition of perversion.



Thanks for admitting it.



In my previous life as a Christian I was a child. Supposedly ALL Christians are "Children of God". Children are expected to obey. I grew up and grew out of Christianity. I no longer obey based on the arbitrary authority laid out in the Bible. I am an Adult. I am Empowered. I make my own decisions. One of those decisions is to call out those who blatantly attempt to manipulate others. Your comments to An3rkist were the equivalent to a horny teenager on prom night telling his GF if she really loves him, she'll # him. Manipulation through guilt is one of the most important tools Christianity uses, both to convert and control the flock. Whether you see that or not, or whether my comments offend you or not, I don't care. I call it like I see it.

My only apology is to An3rkist for interjecting my opinions into what apparently was meant to be a "private" conversation.

So are books. Books like the Bible. And the Koran. And the Talmud. And Buckland's Encyclopedia of Witchcraft. Every "Holy" book or treatise or letter, etc. etc., is written from the point of view of its author, and is the end result of the author's attitudes, desires, likes and dislikes. Look at Leviticus. If the Bible is true you'll burn in Hell for eating lobster.

On a side note about the authors of the Bible, why is there no Gospel of Jesus? I'd think that someone so important to Christianity would have had something to say in His own words on spirituality. But no, everything we have today of Jesus' supposed teachings comes from second-and third-party sources ("second" assuming the existing Gospels were actually written by the authors they're named for). Why did Jesus Himself not write any books?

And why has no one, not one single person on this thread, responded to my very logical attempt to bring the original point of this thread back into focus? In order to determine whether the Bible is true you must determine the parameters of what you consider "the Bible" to be first. Without laying down some basic criteria one cannot logically proceed.

I was raised christian and the whole time felt nothing and then my friend showed me one of drunvalo melchezideck's books the ancient secret of the flower of life and that was enough to open my eyes. I believe that whatever leads you on a self rightous path of good and not evil is the right way for YOU. Everyone has their own truth and no amount of discussion will ever change their minds. All you can do is lead them to the water if they drink or not, well that is their choice. That is where christianity and almost all other mainstream religion looses its credablity to me. When they say that this is and only ever will be the only way to salvation. That is the number one characteristic for fallacy when it comes to sprituallity. We were always told that spirtual development was linear.(laughs)

reply to post by The Nighthawk

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Your opinion...I read it and I see no reason to respond to it. If you feel the need to rant on me, you may do so continually if you like. I'm quite used to it now. But I don't think you should expect me to respond. Your type of debate (if it can even be called that) is not my cup of tea.

That's funny, Jesus said nothing about homosexuality. All that "abomination" crap comes from the Old Testament. Yet Christian preachers continually use the Old Testament for much of their sermonizing and lecturing. If the "new covenant" renders the Old Testament obsolete, then everything in it, including the Ten Commandments, is null and void. And still preachers stick to it. Why is that?

As for being "inspired by the Holy Spirit", how exactly do you test this? Was Joseph Smith Jr. "inspired by the Holy Spirit" when he supposedly translated, and then published, the Book of Mormon? Or was it money and power that inspired him? The same could be asked of most of the Bible's authors. The Old Testament in particular was written by people who were alternately repressed, freed, became a power unto themselves, became corrupt, became repressed again, etc. etc. Which scenario is more likely based on human nature: That they wrote the books of the Bible for the purpose of holding their society together while keeping certain types of people in charge, or that they were "inspired" by some spiritual force?



What about the other 27 or so years of His life? I know others have asked this, but where's the record of Jesus' life in between His birth, His teaching in the temple at around age 12, and His ministry? There's a huge hole there. Care to fill that in? And if His disciples were so devoted and so important, why are only four Gospels included in the currently-published Bible? Where's the rest of the account? Isn't it important enough to include? If there's a "new covenant" set by Jesus in the New Testament then why is the Old Testament included at all?

This is where my post (that you refuse to answer) about defining the parameters of the Bible becomes important. The Bible you own is cherry-picked by arbitrary religious "authorities" as the most convincing, best-sounding set of books and letters that satisfy their purposes. I'm guessing you probably feel the same about politicians and salespeople that most folks do: That they tell you what you want to hear to get you to give them what they want: votes, money, etc.

Religious "authorities" are the same way.

The reason I ask that the Bible be defined, is that the published Bible is not complete. It does NOT include all the Gospels and Letters. It includes the Old Testament, whose rules should be null and void. Is the Book of Mormon a valid part of the Bible? And don't give me that BS answer that "The Bible is the Bible is the Bible and it's true blah blah". That doesn't fly in my book, and it shouldn't fly in yours either. The question posed by the OP is "Non-Christians, what if the Bible is true?" To answer that question logically you have to define what you consider the Bible to be. If you can't answer that, or won't because you might have to think unpleasant thoughts about how much garbage your preacher actually feeds you, then this entire thread is little more that flamebait.

Have you ever read the New Testament?


Jesus FULFILLED the Old Testament.
The parts about how the Hebrews of Jerusalem and the temple were
to use governing laws were rendered 'at rest'
At least until the New Jerusalem comes.
(At least SOME of these will be used again.)


Joseph Smith had some modern extra-biblical 'visions' from an angel. NOT HOLY SPIRIT material.
The Bible was formed by men being moved upon by the Holy Spirit to write , For our use today. If you know God's nature, you can recognize his words.



It wasn't what God wanted. Why would the disciples KNOW much about his childhood? They were children too.
The Old Testament has much that is still in effect!



Some are like that. They're called wolves in sheep's clothing, (eating the flock, for gain.)