Non Christians What If The Bible Is True?

reply to post by The Nighthawk

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And let us not forget the one contribution of the much maligned Arabs...zero. We might be able to ignore that a great deal of 'Western' knowledge was mostly exposure to non-Western ideas but the zero in mathematics was an Arabic idea and the source of modern mathematics.

Mankind (all over the globe) has contributed. Claiming Western supremacy is merely ego.

reply to post by medjhiesco

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There is also a minor addendum to this whole thing. The Romans were probably one of the greatest record keepers of ancient history. Yet this whole 'Jewish rebellion' seems to have slipped through the cracks. Historical records of the period seem to have not really documented much of this whole process. Contemporaries of the period sort of missed this whole thing. No one records an uprising of any import. Somehow Pilate forgot to tell Rome he might have had a serious uprising?

Ok, maybe he didn't want to tell the home office. Greek, Syrian and Egyptian historians felt the same? Outside chance but not probable. No one but biblical scholars put much credence to this 'uprising'. We aren't talking ancient China here. Nor India. Or Bolivia. We are talking the Mediterranean basin, the heart of recorded civilization. At least as far as Western civilization is concerned. Face it, we are talking a direct and huge challenge to Roman control, the big dog of 2,0000 years ago and it doesn't even get a whisper?

[edit on 13-3-2008 by medjhiesco]

I agree with that quote only I would add that it is not Christianity per say, so much as religion in general that gives birth to science.

Religion, no matter what the religion, will always give birth to science.

All movements of God eventually become religions, but they begin with power greater than science, a power able to solve every want or need of every single man women and child upon the face of the earth who wills to believe, and access to all knowledge and all wisdom.

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power

Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

God moves people by the spirit from time to time to come together for the impartation of edification and comfort.

1Co 14:26b when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

When God is no longer the driving force in the hearts of the people, bringing them together for a purpose and a benefit He has predetermined, then the individuals who have positioned themselves within the movement through politics, not raised up by the sprit of God to serve and impart any gift amongst the congregation, but by a personal desire for worldly authority and gain, then it becomes a religion.

2Ti 4
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Some hear the call of God some the call of the wild.

The mammon worshipers in charge of the religious system that remains are forced to look for power to solve the peoples problems as God once did directly, because they must now play the role of God to the people.

The people trapped in the religion for several generation no longer relate to God or understand His ability and workings, how He provides for all the needs of his children.

All search for their need and want to be met and out of necessity, not knowing God, look to science and their fellow man.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

As things progress people who are a part of the religious system, that has been dug out by the evil scorpions, begin to long for God again in power and truth, then a new spiritual movement away from the religion begins.

Like is occurring today, masses of people are awakening to forgotten spirituality, leaving the godless, empty theologies like Christianity, yearning to know God in truth, realizing religion and science are dead and powerless.

Jas 1
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

In the face of true spirituality, science and religion are meaningless.

Nothing is impossible for those who believe God, true spirituality is the greatest enemy of science and religion.

One revelation of the heart, one awakening of one generation, and mankind would once again free itself from science and religion by becoming greater than them both.

The Religion & Church that Existed since in the Day of Abraham

YouTube Link

Hope you all like this Answer and this is How I roll

reply to post by The Nighthawk

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No it was originally posted by me I swear.


So? I am demonstrating that science is a result of faith in God.
The fathers of science believed in God
• Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543) astronomer, mathematics
• Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627) establishing the scientific method of inquiry
• Johannes Kepler (1571-1630) mathematician and astronomer.
• Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) astronomer.,physics
• Rene Descartes (1596-1650) father of modern philosophy, mathematician, scientist
• Isaac Newton (1642-1727) mathematics,physics,chemistry
• Robert Boyle (1791-1867) chemistry
• Michael Faraday (1791-1867) physics
• Gregor Mendel (1822-1884) genetics


I might be unaware because of my western heritage. Where’s your evidence of this. Why are the fundamental laws of physics and chemistry entirely Western? The scientific method is a western concept as far as I know. I might be wrong but you haven’t proven a thing. Provide evidence .


I mean science in the more restricted use of the word. I am unaware of any other culture in history that had a comparable system. Hence ,the technological superiority of the western world.

That is a gross oversimplification. There is a lot more to it. en.wikipedia.org...
To even begin to observe you have to presume that the universe is intelligible by rational thought. Where does that presumption come from if not faith?



That’s not really science… just discovery. Again I am speaking of true science in the strict definition of the word. The science of cooking or keeping warm isn’t relevant.



I am basing that on historical fact. The fathers of modern science were Christians. Sir Francis Bacon was a Christian and he invented the scientific method.



Maybe it is ethno-centric. The scientific revolution is credited to a clergyman Nicolaus Copernicus when he published his “On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres “ in 1543. Show me another culture that had anything comparable to Newton’s Laws of classical mechanics. Or the fundamental gas laws in chemistry of Sir Robert Boyle. These men were devout Christians and a students of the Bible. All our technology and major advances can be traced back to western science.



It’s not the science I was referring to.
I bet you wouldn’t volunteer for one of those Egyptian brain surgeries would you?



Well essentially you agree with my entire argument. I was speaking of modern science in the strict definition of the word. The science that has given us electricity, mass transportation, genetics, and nuclear power. Richard Dawkins is an atheist. He wants to destroy all religious faith. He says all faith is blind faith. He is wrong. There is such a thing as evidence based faith. It just so happens that the fathers of modern science were Christians. My main theme in the post you disagreed with was belief in God is the foundational belief that we can understand the universe. Theism.

reply to post by Bigwhammy

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You do realize what happened to people who didn't believe in God in those days right? Of course they "believed" in God.

Just look what happened to scientists when their results didn't fit with the current ideology.

Do you even think things through at all, or do you just find half-way correct data and copy it and paste it?

reply to post by Sublime620

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Do you ever contribute any research or just smart remarks?

edit: I just put you on ignore, you're not worth the trouble bye!

BTW I did a lot of research for that post on the history of science.



[edit on 3/13/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by Bigwhammy

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That's fine. But someone should pass the word on to him that I'm not the one calling the other's work baloney.

That's the difference between him and I. If I am arguing that someone is wrong, I try to prove it. He just quotes scripture and silly links to laymen's analysis of complicated scientific data.

I've not tried to prove anything false on this thread, or any others that he's been in. That's why I haven't posted any links.

Felt I needed to point that out to others with more common sense.

*edited to add:

Notice he didn't even comment on what I said about scientists in previous centuries. I guess it never occured to him that real science was surpressed if it didn't fit the ideals at the time.

Tis a shame.

[edit on 13-3-2008 by Sublime620]

In the beginning when God created man in his own image and gave them dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air
and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth And God saw everything He made and behold it was good Then the heavens and the earth were finished and all the host of them. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it.....THEN after all those things in Gen chapter 1 & 2-
God commanded the man not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil He say's : For in that day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die-God new man would partake of the fruit thereof, read the verse.
Then here comes the serpent into the picture: he say's the opposite of what God said: he say's for in that day that you eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil So the woman believes the serpent over God and persuades man to eat too, and sure enough, they died, SPIRITUALLY they lost their close relationship with God and became servants to sin and the world and the devil. But God has a plan already, Yahshua would bring back that which was lost and that which died, when He died, resurrected and ascended into Heaven, He defeated death and sin, so now our battle is no longer with flesh and blood, but :
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

And also:1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

And most importantly: 1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man relies on the earthly knowledge, he is still chewing on that tree. The man who comes the truth, the way & the life, understands the knowledge and wisdom of this world is vanity among vanity, it comes to nothing because it isn't even knowledge at all, it is something that passes away into dust.

Now if you read the Genesis verses and read Genesis entirely, in fact the whole Bible, you cannot ever find anywhere where God gave man dominion in the heavenlies or what we call today *space* So who do you think did??? All this knowledge is going to fall and burn and when all you have is degrees, and awards and wisdom of the tree, how can you expect to stand in the Great and Awesome Day of our LORD? What will you offer Him? A masters degree in sociology or biology perhaps? Cain offered the fruit of the ground (worldly knowledge) but Abel offered the firstling of his flock (The Lamb) =Yahshua. And God had no respect for Cains offering. So Cain murdered his own brother out of jealosy.....


Matthew 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

What will you give in exchange for your soul?

I'm getting tired of the bashing of Christians. You ought to atleast respect that we care about you enough to spend endless hours explaining to you the truth which we have accepted, there might come a time when you hear the voice of the bride or bridegroom anymore, and you will seek it but not find it because no text book in this world can give you the marks of God and His Son (the livivg word), they only give you the marks of man.

It is far far easier for people to live their sinful lifestyles if there is no God or Jesus. Then there are only man's laws to contend with and those can easily be changed. Like when you are little and afraid of ghosts. You think if you believe ghosts don't exist then they won't. Same concept, if these people believe hard enough then God won't exist. Right now they are kids whose parents aren't home. What are they gonna do when daddy comes home?

You get a star for that one my friend. You even put the fear of God in me with that last question. What are we all going to do when Father comes home??

There won't be much explaining being done that's for sure! No excuses, no amount of blame and accusation can get us out of the mess we've all made. But the blood of the Lamb can!!!

Your logic is fundamentally flawed. This is an example of what's known as 'Post-Hoc, ergo Propter hoc'. Literally, before, therefore because of.


Just because the scientists you list were theists doesn't mean that 'God' gave them these ideas, or that faith in God has anything to do with the contributions they provided to modern science.



I might be unaware because of my western heritage. Where’s your evidence of this. Why are the fundamental laws of physics and chemistry entirely Western? The scientific method is a western concept as far as I know. I might be wrong but you haven’t proven a thing. Provide evidence .

Apologies for the long posts, but I need to reply to the posts I've missed over the past ten or so pages:



I have been away from this thread for the past ten or fifteen pages, and I'm going to go back through the whole thing and read what I've missed, but this post caught my attention. Personally I think the ignore feature should be got rid of entirely in this forum. I think anyone who ignores opposing views is ignoring the *fact* that they *could* be wrong. I have never and will never ignore a single poster in this forum - EVER. It seems to me that anyone who ignores opposing views, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, is insecure in their own beliefs. I've had a decent conversation with the OP up until this point, but a big fat for this ignorant action.



The things you mention are not solely the "blight" of people who do not believe in Christ as the Saviour. As was talked about earlier in this thread, even atheists have morals. Morals are not the property of Christians alone. I was not suggesting that you are necessarily missing out on anything as much as I was suggesting that you are putting off Heaven and Hell to an unknown future date, one which occurs after we die, where no one can know with one hundred percent assurety that we are even going to be around to receive those punishments/rewards. I find it "escapist" to say that those things will be coming to us after we die and move on to the unknown. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I would be a great salesmen if I could sell you a TV that you had to pay me for now but you wouldn't get until after you die. That's what I see the preachers, etc. doing.



Again, it is not only Christians who are charitable. The majority of the world is not Christian, yet you see many of them doing incredible things for their fellow men, too. Personally, I don't need God to tell me I should be good to my fellow man, it's just common sense.



This is a totally personal question, and would be different for everyone. For me to be a Christian I would have to sacrifice my own personal sense of logic and reason, which are very important to me. Additionally, I would have to sacrifice what [in my mind I consider] my freedom. I would have to sacrifice the ability to make mistakes and learn from them without having somebody laying a guilt trip on me. I would have to sacrifice my own desire to decide for myself what is right and what is wrong, rather than having somebody else do it. I would have to sacrifice quite a lot, but you get the picture.



You seem to be looking for some kind of external justice, whereas the justice that I know is within our own hearts and minds. These people that you speak of committing atrocities may seem to get away with things, but you cannot see what's going on inside their hearts and minds. Either they truly believe what they are doing is right, and in my opinion are thus justified in doing what they did, or they did not believe it was right and are suffering beyond explanation. As I said, I believe Heaven and Hell are states of mind which we experience at any given moment, and Heaven is the state of mind we are in when we are doing right. There is justice in this world, you just can't look for it from other humans, you can only look for it within yourself.



I don't really get what that has to do with the topic at hand. Everybody has disabilities, some are just more obvious to others' eyes than others. We all just have to do the best we can with the hand we've been dealt. (Not suggesting some "creator" dealt us this hand, though.)



I know this was directed at Nohup, but I'd like to add my answer. You don't need the Bible to gain these things. If the Bible helps you, more power to you. But don't tell me that without the Bible I can't have morals, or I won't give to charity, or that I'll be afraid of death. I'm living proof that all of that is false.



And if you are wrong, and this life is all there is, then you could say that you wasted the only life you had. Catch 22 for like the hundredth time in this thread. If eternity is going to be spent in the presence of the God in the Bible, I think that would be as bad as spending it in Hell for me...



I don't see how the youtube video has any less credibility than the bible does. I hate that people would take this movie as fact as much as you, but i would say the same for the Bible... Both are biased opinions of possible facts.



My answer to this question is that if it's all true, and I was not accepted into Heaven despite the fact that I'm a good person, I would help organize a revolt against God from Hell because he's obviously not such a great guy anyway. Seems impossible? If the Bible is as true as you purport it to be in your question, God is not perfect, and can be taken down.



Yes you could. The difference between that and what we're trying to do is that no one is trying to convince anyone that The Illiad is the end all be all of existence, and that we must live as it tells us to or we'll be damned for time and all eternity.

[edit on 14/3/08 by an3rkist]

You do realize that The Alexandrian Library which was destroyed in 415 AD, was the seat of stored knowledge for the middle East, if not the world.


So, you don't believe that Christians were persecuted for their perceived threat to tyranny???
What about Dioclesian?

Then there's Nero.
Boisestate

Some *free will* I have if I'm not "qualified" to judge God. Personally, I feel I'm qualified because God has given me no reason to believe he exists. You're judging him too. You've judged that he is good. Additionally, in the words of Galileo, "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." Additionally, those of us who are saying God is vain are not judging God, we are judging your God, who we obviously do not believe in. And lastly, Thomas Jefferson said it better than I ever could, "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."



You seem to think everything good stems from the Bible, yet even the morals the Bible teaches are not primarily biblical. Whence does the morality of the Buddhist or atheist or Hindu or Muslim come from? These "rules" are not God's rules, as you call them, they are fundamental human morals, common sense.



If we have the free will you say we do, you have no justification to ask that question. And the mere fact that we are considered below God, as you say, suggests that God is an arrogant deity, and vain, too. He's even referred to as a "jealous" god in the Bible, though I assume somebody is going to tell me the true meaning of the original translation...



Just like the Bible is, and God himself. You've just used the exact same argument we "non-Christians" have used. (By the way, I don't believe in Darwin's theory of evolution or in Creationism, both for the same reason I don't believe in God and for the same reason you just gave above. I happen to be secure enough enough in my lack of knowledge about everything to admit that I just don't know. I do have a better theory though...)



Do you have any scientific studies that have been done that give evidence to the existence of a supreme being? Just because some scientists believed in God doesn't mean that science supports the existence of God. The fact is that science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of a supreme being. Catch 22!



Actually all it "proves" is that there is no link *yet*. Just because a link has not been found does not mean the theory is definitely wrong. (Though I agree with you that it is, though I disagree with your theory also.) By your logic, the link to support your theory is also missing, (i.e. God), and therefore you are wrong, too. I'm not saying that's true, I'm just using your same logic...



Naming off "great" scientists who were Christians does not in any way support your theory that "true science" points straight toward a creator. And no, science is not born from faith in God. A quick google search will show you many great scientists who are atheists, and many many more who are not Christians. I think it quite narrow-minded for you to dismiss the research of scientists based on their religious beliefs or lack thereof. I do not denounce the research of Christian scientists based on their beliefs.



This statement is the epitome of a Christian who wants to claim all of the great things in the world in the name of his/her God. Not to mention it's not even remotely true.



I find it interesting that the people on the other side of this debate are starting to use the above argument more and more. Now they know how we feel. Yet somehow I doubt the empathy is being noticed on their part.



Where did you hear this drivel? On what basis did this ridiculous logic ever stem from? By definition, science and faith are almost complete antonyms. And to suggest that we would not have consciousness without divine intervention is not giving us enough credit. I despise the apologetic way theists seem to put humans on the lowest level of the ladder in the universe: "We're nothing without God." We're humans, with or without God.


You say it is easier to sin without God, and I would say that's true, but if you do not believe in God then "sin" becomes a matter of debate anyway. It may be easier to commit the sins that you believe in when somebody doesn't believe in God, but life itself becomes more difficult. Why? Because its more complicated. It's harder because all of a sudden, you have to decide for yourself what's right and what's wrong. Don't be so quick to say things are easier without God, because I've lived both ways and life was easier for me when I was a Christian. However, I enjoy my life more without God telling me what's right or wrong, because I know when I make a decision that it's right, because I figured it out for myself. That's the scientific method in action: trial and error.

We're all escapists. You have your Christian beliefs and your theory that you're going to be saved because of them, and I have my bottle of whiskey. Both serve the same purpose: numb the mind to make life easier.

[edit on 14/3/08 by an3rkist]

Brilliant. But I'm an empiracist. I don't know any Ancient Greeks (or Jews for that matter), but I do know some Native Americans. So THIS must be TRUE!

Sun-God went east to live and travel with the Sun. Girl-Without- Parents departed westward to live on the far horizon. Small-Boy and Pollen-Girl made cloud homes in the south. Big Dipper can still be seen in the northern sky at night, a reliable guide to all.

I have also seen the miracle of Pollen-Girl first hand. She can't stop sneezing in line at Starbucks.

I havent been in here for a while and man so many pages lol. So i still dont see evidence of an existence of god or jesus for anything?. Today will be nice. Time to get back to the imagination of this day lets jump to another universe

And another thing mary must of been sleeping with alot of people if jesus did exist. I never seen a virgin with a kid its wierd. unless u want to show me the blood?

[edit on 15-3-2008 by SaadAdam]

reply to post by Clearskies

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Yup, Clear, I've heard of the Library of Alexandria. And that it was finally destroyed in 415 AD. Just a couple of questions though. Who destroyed it? And why?

Also, why are your accounts of persecution limited to the pre-Christian era? What about the Knights Templar? What abouts the tens of thousands during the Inquisition? What about the Catharites and Albigensians? What about the thousands of Protestants or the poor beknighted savages of the New World? I'm willing to guess that the number of preChristian era people who were persecuted was a very small fraction of those who were persecuted by the post.

[edit on 15-3-2008 by medjhiesco]

One thing I have noticed in this thread and several other related ones, diversity. I have spent most of my life asking questions, studying various religions, mythologies and philosophies from all over the world. Incredible diversity. I have also spent a great deal of time just observing the world around me, both on a personal level and via the wonderful gift of communication.

There are a few things I find interesting. One, I can do it. I can know there are many cultures, many lands. Not just from words but from having traveled and personally observed. Second, the world is fascinating and truly a miracle. Not just what I have seen of this planet but what I have learned about what is beyond. I have discovered good and bad, silliness and wisdom. I have learned that the natural world is a wondrous balance, a harmony, a symphony of many things existing together. I have yet to observe or learn of anything in nature where imposition of control has worked to permanently change what is.

The world is constantly changing and growing. There is no one truth, one system that puts order to the gentle chaos of life. What is true in the tundra is not true in the rain forest or the desert. With the possible exception of what works, flourishes, what doesn't, withers. Too many locusts, lemmings, herring...it will balance out. The world and life goes on. Rocks keep on being rocks, buffalo, buffalo and so on. The natural world is incredible diverse.

And therein lies the rub. Man hates diversity. It scares him. It offends human ego that the world not only doesn't need him, it would be better off without him. Man just can't stand the idea he doesn't know everything or have control. We can't stand the idea of maybe we might be wrong. It offends his sense of self that there are things he neither has control over or understanding of.

I do not advocate abandoning the gifts of our intellect. Or somehow returning to simpler ways. The genii is out of the bottle, the egg is broken. The abilities of thought and communication are special to humankind. It is a heady power only man has. What we have neglected is that with great power comes great responsibility. We have been shown we have some say in how things happen. We are the tool builder, the thinker, the one with speech and opposable thumbs. And we are learning we can destroy.

Building is a positive force. Destroying a negative force. My way or the highway isn't exactly building.

posted on 9-3-2008 @ 10:13 PM
reply to post by an3rkist

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by Idle_Rocker



I wanted to go back and pick up where I left off with you since I had to leave the thread so abruptly and haven't been back in a week. The above comment is the last I made addressing you personally. Since you are my friend, I want you to understand where I'm coming from and explain the belief I addressed above.

I do believe you must accept Christ as your saviour to enter into heaven. Having said that, it's very clear in the Bible that Jesus accepts us as we are "Just as I am" as the song goes and I'm sure, having been raised in a Christian home, you are familiar with it.

Having a personal relationship with Jesus allows us to have our past mistakes washed away. We must, however, seek him to find him. He knocks at our door, but we have to open the door and let him in. Once we do this and come to him humbly, admitting our mistakes, our past, present and future mistakes are forgotten, and we may enter heaven.

Jesus does not say we won't make mistakes again. Quite to the contrary, Paul admits he tries and tries to do right but it just doesn't happen for him.
Was he saved nonetheless? Yes, he was.

I think you are a bright, young man with strong analytical abilities which makes it harder for you to see things by faith. Faith is merely the absence of something seen or proven. It takes faith to believe most anything...that the sun will rise, etc. And all religions, even atheism and agnosticsm require some form of faith since none of the tenets of each are proven.

I will post more about your responses in other posts, since we have lost touch over the week.

In love, your granny-type friend, I_R

[edit on 3/15/08 by idle_rocker]