Two things to keep in mind, m0rbid:
1. Gaining mass/bulking up/getting "buff" is not easy to do. It takes a lot of time and a lot of hard work. Even with sterioids, you have to work out hard and often and eat right.
2. Some people don't have the body type to get big no matter what they do.

If you do decide to try some creatine, be careful & pay close attention to how your body reacts.
Another thing to keep in mind, there are no long-term studies done yet as creatine is such a new supplement (on the market about 10 years now). Yes, it's a naturally-occuring amino acid, but we don't know what it does at such high doses over a long period of time.

Good luck to you, and if there's anything I can help with regarding natural bulking (via diet & exercise), drop me a line. I haven't used any supps in years.

-B.

No kidding

Seriously, I totally know what you mean, I worked and sweated for like more than 6 months before I stopped in december. I started from 6" tall, 150 lbs, and now I'm at 180 lbs. My ideal goal would be to reach 200 lbs, but now what I really want is to gain more muscle & strenght, the weight isn't one of my priority anymore. Altho I wouldn't mind gaining some more.

A year ago, I started eating well, cutted everything that's called fast food out of my diet, started eating lots of fruits and vegetables, and as I said, I add 2 or 3 meal substitutes to my normal 3 meals diet.

The substitutes are in form of shake, I add plant protein to it (Herbalife stuff), use them with soy milk, and sometimes I add white eggs in it too.

About those side effects... I thought something would scare me real bad...But it didn't looked so bad. But few mins. ago, I was talking on the phone, and a friend mentionned (JustAnIllusion also did, in the previous page) that the "package" could shrink from using Creatine, just like it does with steroids.

Does anyone know if that is true? Cuz if it is, it's a no-no for me.

That is a myth, it is referring to testicles shrinking because creatine is confused with steroids and pro hormones...creatine doesn't affect hormones at all so no your balls will not shrink. It is very harmless, the worst that could really happen is upset stomach if you are sensitive to it and take too much. There was recently a 5 year study done on football players taking creatine which is quite long term, and there were no adverse effects, specifically kidney/liver function was normal, contrary to some scientists' speculation.

If you need any help about workout programs/diet/supplements u2u me, I know quite a bit.

[Edited on 1-3-2004 by Shoktek]

Thanks for the info shoktek.

I'm still not sure if I wanna try this stuff or not. I just started working out again, I think I'll go a month or 2 natural, and if I don't like the progress I'm making, I might give it a try...

Yea, I usually use it for a few weeks every once in a while and then go off...but it's not all it's hyped up to be in public...most people think it is like a steroid and it will make you huge which is not true. Basically it makes you retain water weight in your muscle (so you gain around 5 lbs the first couple weeks you start it), some say this is more anabolic which helps you build muscle faster. There have also been many studies showing how taking creatine increases strength and power (weight lifting numbers, as well as sprint times improve), as your ATP is replenished much quicker. You might notice more "fullness" in muscles as well as better pumps during workouts and increased strength...

edit: Creatine is also THE most heavily studied dietary supplement in history...there has not been ONE study on humans to suggest that it has any detrimental effects in the future, everything they say is just speculation of using it longterm.

[Edited on 2-3-2004 by Shoktek]

Shoktek - you got me hooked totally. When i get some i'll report on how this stuff influences me in my vertical jump excercises. I may be dunking in no time...

Hah, it really isn't that great...it does help, but it's not like steroids or anything. It is pretty cheap though, and harmless. You can buy a kilogram of creatine for around 20 dollars so it can't hurt anyway. I would recommend getting any kind that says made with "creapure" as it is a higher quality. There are also products such as Cell-tech that charge you an arm and a leg for regular creatine mixed with sugar...and then there are newer creatine products that contain other ingredients which give more of a pump or strength gains..

When you are taking it, make sure to drink lots of water to avoid cramps and to get optimum effect. You can either just take 5-10g/day split pre/post workout, or for the first 5 days you can "load" with 20g/day and then 5-10/day after that. Either way you will still get the same effect over time, loading gives you quicker results.

Another thing is, it is well known that there are creatine "non responders" who don't seem to get anything at all from creatine. The newer creatine combo type products work well for these people...

Are you doing a weight routine for your verticle? I will try to dig up some studies on creatine's effects on vertical jumps...let me know if you have any questions.

The effects of 8 weeks of creatine monohydrate and glutamine supplementation on body composition and performance measures.

Lehmkuhl M, Malone M, Justice B, Trone G, Pistilli E, Vinci D, Haff EE, Kilgore JL, Haff GG.

Department of Nutrition and Food Science, Auburn University, Auburn, AL 36849, USA.

Twenty-nine (17 men, 12 women) collegiate track and field athletes were randomly divided into a creatine monohydrate (CM, n = 10) group, creatine monohydrate and glutamine (CG, n = 10) group, or placebo (P, n = 9) group. The CM group received 0.3 g creatine.kg body mass per day for 1 week, followed by 0.03 g creatine.kg body mass per day for 7 weeks. The CG group received the same creatine dosage scheme as the CM group plus 4 g glutamine.day(-1). All 3 treatment groups participated in an identical periodized strength and conditioning program during preseason training. Body composition, vertical jump, and cycle performances were tested before (T1) and after (T2) the 8-week supplementation period. Body mass and lean body mass (LBM) increased at a greater rate for the CM and CG groups, compared with the P treatment. Additionally, the CM and CG groups exhibited significantly greater improvement in initial rate of power production, compared with the placebo treatment. These results suggest CM and CG significantly increase body mass, LBM, and initial rate of power production during multiple cycle ergometer bouts.

------

Effects of in-season (5 weeks) creatine and pyruvate supplementation on anaerobic performance and body composition in American football players.

Stone MH, Sanborn K, Smith LL, O'Bryant HS, Hoke T, Utter AC, Johnson RL, Boros R, Hruby J, Pierce KC, Stone ME, Garner B.

Exercise Science Department, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC 28608, USA.

The purpose of this investigation was to study the efficacy of two dietary supplements on measures of body mass, body composition, and performance in 42 American football players. Group CM (n = 9) received creatine monohydrate, Group P (n = 11) received calcium pyruvate, Group COM (n = 11) received a combination of calcium pyruvate (60%) and creatine (40%), and Group PL received a placebo. Tests were performed before (T1) and after (T2) the 50 week supplementation period, during which the subjects continued their normal training schedules. Compared to P and PL, CM and COM showed significantly greater increases for body mass, lean body mass, 1 repetition maximum (RM) bench press, combined 1 RM squat and bench press, and static vertical jump (SVJ) power output. Peak rate of force development for SVJ was significantly greater for CM compared to P and PL. Creatine and the combination supplement enhanced training adaptations associated with body mass/composition, maximum strength, and SVJ; however, pyruvate supplementation alone was ineffective.

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[Edited on 2-3-2004 by Shoktek]

Thanks for the research. I found this bit:

"Creatine has not been shown to have adverse side effects; however, people who exceed this dosage could be at a higher risk of developing renal disease. Those with renal disease should not take Creatine. Consuming Creatine right before or during exercise is not recommended."

"The standard dosage is 20 grams a day for one week, followed by 2-5 grams as a daily maintenance dose."

from:
www.herbalremedies.com...

I'm doing:

Stabiliser Weightless Bench Squats
Basketball Balancing
Stabiliser Lunges
Side bends
Twisting sit ups
Calf Raises
Weightless Bench Squats
Lunges
Seated Dumbell Lift and Press
Increase Dumbell Shrugs

I'm looking around for an american vitamin place that'll sell creatine, right now.

This looks good because all of the product is absorbed orally:

www.trulyhuge.com...

Everything is European or something weird like that.

This looks good but its powder:
www.herbalremedies.com...


[Edited on 2-3-2004 by ktprktpr]

ONLY get the powder kind...liquid creatine is a scam, and doesn't contain hardly any useable creatine, as it cant be stabilized in a liquid very well...it turns to creatinine which is the byproduct of creatine and wont do anything. Creatine gum I doubt works either...just get some powder, put a teaspoon in a cup, fill with water and drink. You can't even taste it, and it is the only proven version.

To add mass and strength, you might also try a whey protein shake once a day preferably soon after weight training to aid in rebuilding. Also, in weight training for mass, only work each muscle group once per week to exhaustion and then allow it to rebuild. Alot of people who have a hard time building mass and especially stregth tend to Overwork the muscle group. You don't need a 3 hour routine per muscle group. I found that out in college where my bench never got over 250lbs. 30 to 40 minutes with 4 to 5 sets per exercise will suffice and show you better results.

some good sites for cheap supplements...
www.dpsnutrition.com
www.1fast400.com

Of course, training and diet come first when trying to gain size. If that is your goal, I would also recommend optimum protein powder. And for the creatine, prolab's is good and cheap.

Thanks astrocreep.

I think what you just said explain a part of my problem.
I used to do the same routines, each day or each two days, over and over. And they were almost all arms muscles routines.

This ain't good, cuz how I did, I gained endurance, but my strenght almost always stayed the same.

So I gotta work out till exhaustion, then take a couple of days of break... Gotta change the routine...

My current split:

Mon- Chest and Biceps

Wed- Legs and Shoulders

Fri- Back and Triceps

I also got good results from...
Mon-Chest
Tue-Back
Wed-Shoulders
Thu-Legs
Fri-Arms

Doing each bodypart once a week and on its own day really allows you to hit it hard...then you have a whole week for your muscle to rebuild which is necessary if training for size. You should also have a protein shake immediately after your workout with simple carbs and creatine. Some good exercises:

Chest- Barbell or Dumbell Flat & Incline Bench, Dips or Decline Bench
Back- Deadlift, Barbell/Dumbell Rows, Weighted Chin ups or pull downs, seated or tbar rows
shoulders- db or military press, side laterals, reverse flyes, shrugs
legs- squats, leg press, stiff leg deadlift, calf raises for calves
arms- skullcrushers/french presses, barbell curls

Those are the main heavy compound movements for each muscle group...there are also more isolation exercises for each that you can throw in at the end of workouts if you have extra time.

It looks like you guys are working towards mass and strength. I'm working towards explosiveness and power. But creatine obviously helps with that. Of these products, which looks like the best, to you? (note that I try to keep it under $20)

1. www.dpsnutrition.net...
Optimum Nutrition Pre-Load Creatine Orange - 4 Lb
DPS Price: $15.99

2. www.dpsnutrition.net...
Beverly International Creatine Select + Phosphates - 41 Serv
$19.50

- i like how he mixes phosphates for ready absorpation. And how it has no sugar.

3. www.dpsnutrition.net...
Champion Power Creatine - 400 Gram
-Straight up, no BS. But is it impure and therefore a waste of money?

I'm basically looking at www.dpsnutrition.net...

EDIT- A local store near by sells Creatine Powder, 400 Grams, Good 'N Natural for like 13.99. It's straight up Creatine powder, no sugar no nothing. I think I'm going to go with this because its cheap and pure creatine.

[Edited on 3-3-2004 by ktprktpr]

I do wanna gain some mass and strenght before I start working out to become a real athlete.

I'll be happy when I'm 200 lbs. BTW thanks to all for the working-out tips.

Will really come in handy.

[Edited on 3-3-2004 by m0rbid]

Another reason to be careful:
from www.natural-bodybuilding.net...

this guy has seen increased blood pressure. Apparently he couldn't sleep so he stoppped taking it. He now takes whey protein and glutamin, which gives him the same "boost." Also, the body makes about 2 grams a day, but peopel take 10 grams, and then back down to 2-5, which is a lot.

Another thing is that since it increases your strength, watch out if you over load. You'll stress your tendons. In my case, if I overloaded and suddenly was able to dunk, I'd probably shock my knee caps and pull my thigh muscles. So I'm going to build up with 2 gram doses.

[Edited on 3-3-2004 by ktprktpr]

Creatine has its issues.....I have used it and gained 20+ pounds over the 3 month cycle but you can become dependant on it and your body eventually will stop producing it which in turn can screw up your system. My old man had taken it for a few weeks and started having irregular heartbeats and his doctor advised him to get off of it. If you use it properly and are in good health already I wouldnt worry to much about it....Just make sure you dont load because it isnt needed and dont go over the 3 month period for bulking up....

1-AF and Whey are also good products.

If your looking to gain size the best thing to do is eat eat eat.....Chicken breast, brown rice for carbs, eggs, stay away from the yellows though, tuna, salmon etc....are all great for you. Try getting about 1.5-2 grams of protein for every pound you wiegh in your system daily as thats the only way your muscles will be allowed to grow properly. Try getting the majority of it from foods, and then use the whey protein as a way to fill your need each day......
Make sure your eating 6 meals a day with smaller servings at each meal....It spreads out the energy needed for you to keep your small and large muscle fibers growing....

Some people recommended some creatine here but the best you can get IMO is ....Anything by EAS. Ive used the stuff for a little over 5 years and it has done wonders for me, on top of working out that is.

[Edited on 3-3-2004 by Dreamz]

Ah man...

I've been back and forth, and I still don't know if I should try it or not. Last time I thought I should give it a try, but with what's been just said, I'm thinking not...

Since we got a few people reading this thread, I also wanted your opinions about another products. It's a multi-vitamins supplement. Check info here.
www.gnc.com...

Looks interesting to me. Does anyone see any possible bad side at it?