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reply posted on 16-2-2008 @ 09:26 PM by idle_rocker
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It would seem to me that it is an eternal place for the spirit to abide without ANY peace, happiness or experience of goodness. I don't know, I'm
just throwing this out there...but since it implies a sort of burning, torcherous hole, could it not mean a sort of "burning in the heart/soul" for
an experience of what is missed from Life? Perhaps the dump (hole) is a sort of emptiness and despair, sort of like I would think the pits of
depression would be like. Misery, despair and longing to be in another place...but you won't be able to get out.
I do wonder what "forever" will be like since we can only imagine it through our experience of time.
[edit on 2/16/2008 by idle_rocker]
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reply posted on 16-2-2008 @ 09:40 PM by AshleyD
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
Thanks for the links, Hon. Let's just say this is a debate I hope to lose.  "For an age" seems much more bearable.
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reply posted on 16-2-2008 @ 09:47 PM by nwomi
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you tricked me, i thought i was really going to see hell, instead i see a nice place. its ok i see that you are just trying to get some facts on.
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reply posted on 16-2-2008 @ 10:00 PM by Astrobee
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To those who believe in eternal torment I have a few questions.
How many parents here could torment their own children if they misbehaved? And tack forever on to that too. So if we can't do it, how can God?
If no man can come to Christ except if the Father prepares him, how can anyone take credit for their own salvation?
If God is not a respector of persons, why would He choose some but not others?
If your answer is I chose to follow God, the others didn't so that is their fate (hell) well then you have reason to brag then because you followed
Him and they didn't but doesn't that contradict grace and what is written above?
It took God 30 years to reveal His truth to me but I kept searching all that time. Something wasn't adding up with the teaching that only a very few
would be saved and the vast majority of mankind was eternally doomed.
1 Timothy 4:10 - Jesus Christ the Savior of all men, especially to those who believe
He truly has everything under control. If most people were really going to hell forever, wouldn't you all agree that the devil won? After all, he got
more souls than God. See how ridiculous that is?
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reply posted on 16-2-2008 @ 10:11 PM by Bigwhammy
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reply to post by Astrobee
Thank God for you!Astrobee! 
Also "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Wouldn't just be wrong if the devil won more souls than God? See why I say eternal torture is a demonic deception? This is a conspiracy
message board.
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reply posted on 16-2-2008 @ 10:28 PM by AshleyD
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Originally posted by Astrobee
1 Timothy 4:10 - Jesus Christ the Savior of all men, especially to those who believe
Now that is an interesting verse. Since I'm in a lazy mood, can any Christians shed some light on this? The context may be found
HERE.
The passage is: "This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance and for this we labor and strive that we have put our hope in the living
God who is the Savior of all men and especially of those who believe." I Timothy 4:10
There's another passage by Paul that says Jesus died for since once and all so this debate could get interesting. Along with the "age" translation
and not "eternity," what are everyone's thoughts?
Again, I'm being lazy and am passing the buck instead of doing the research myself this time. If nobody knows, let me know and I'll research it
myself and post the findings here.
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reply posted on 16-2-2008 @ 10:34 PM by passenger
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I’m sorry but I don’t really see the significance of these photos (other than historical reference). If two millennia ago the place was a hellish
garbage dump and Jesus used it as a visceral image for his teachings it probably had great impact. But today it looks different….how does this
affect anything?
Hiroshima sixty years ago was “Hell-on-Earth”. Today – not such a bad place.
It seems to me that there still remains a lot of confusion about literal and metaphorical/allegorical statements in the Bible.
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reply posted on 17-2-2008 @ 07:49 AM by jdposey
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reply to post by AshleyD
The wording of that scripture is indeed interesting. In my opinion, as I read it, Jesus is indeed the Savior of all men, just as we, who believe in
him, can testify to that truth. Unfortunately, not ALL men will believe this fact that is readily available to them. The gift of eternal life is
there, but their unbelief prevents them from accessing it.
I always try to keep other scriptures in mind when attempting to understand another. Perhaps Matthew 7:13-14 can shed some light on I Timothy 4:10:
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Another "troubling" scripture is I Peter 4:18:
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
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reply posted on 17-2-2008 @ 08:13 AM by d60944
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Would be "fairer" for everyone to achieve entry to heaven? Is it truly "loving" for some to be exluded from eternal bliss?
Or put the other way round... is it right (or even logical) for all the good in heaven to be made to suffer, even there, by the action of evil in
it?
"What some people say on Earth is that the final loss of one soul gives the lie to all the joy of those who are saved."...
"That sounds very merciful: but see what lurks behind it."
"What?"
"The damend of the loveless and the self-imprisoned that they should be allowed to blackmail the universe: that till they consent to be happy (on
their own terms) no one else shall taste joy: that theirs should be the final power; that Hell should be able to veto Heaven."...
"It must be one way or the other. Either the day must come when joy prevails and all the makers of misery are no longer able to infect it: or else
for ever and ever the makers of misery can destroy in others the happiness they reject for themselves. I know it has a grand sound to say ye'll
accept no salvation which leaves even one creature in the dark outside. But watch that sophistry or ye'll make a Dog in a Manger the tyant of the
universe."
"But dare one say - it is horrible to say - that Pity must ever die?"
"Ye must distinguish. The action of Pity will live for ever: but the passion of Pity will not. The passion of Pity, the Pity we merely suffer, the
ache that draws men to concede what should not be conceded and to flatter when they should speak truth, the pity that has cheated many a woman out of
her virgintiy and many a statesman out of his honesty - that will die. It was used as a weapon by bad men against good ones: their weapon will be
broken."
"And what is the other kind - the action?"
"It;s a weapon on the other side. It leaps quicker than light from the highest place to the lowest to bring healing and joy, whatever the cost to
itself. It changes darkness into light and evil into good. But it will not, at the cunning tears of Hell, impose on good the tyranny of evil. Every
disease that submits to a cure shall be cured: but we will not cal blue yellow to please those who insist on still having jaundice, nor make a midden
of the world's garden for the sake of someone who cannot abide the smell of roses."
CS Lewis - The Great Divorce
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reply posted on 17-2-2008 @ 11:14 AM by Bigwhammy
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Originally posted by passenger
I’m sorry but I don’t really see the significance of these photos (other than historical reference). If two millennia ago the place was a hellish
garbage dump and Jesus used it as a visceral image for his teachings it probably had great impact. But today it looks different….how does this
affect anything?
Hiroshima sixty years ago was “Hell-on-Earth”. Today – not such a bad place.
It seems to me that there still remains a lot of confusion about literal and metaphorical/allegorical statements in the Bible.
The major significance is that when Jesus taught and said Gehenna, other Jews, like the disciples, didn't think of it as a mythical place of eternal
torture but a garbage dump. Big difference from what people today think when you say Hell. Garbage dumps aren't eternal, and no one gets tortured
there.
Perhaps they are discarded which fits the metaphor- maybe atheists get what they believe and cease to exist. But I do not believe God takes pleasure
in or sponsors eternal torture nor do I believe the Bible teaches it.
[edit on 2/17/2008 by Bigwhammy]
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reply posted on 17-2-2008 @ 12:37 PM by TimoD
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Wheres the fire 
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reply posted on 18-2-2008 @ 11:48 AM by passenger
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
The major significance is that when Jesus taught and said Gehenna, other Jews, like the disciples, didn't think of it as a mythical place of eternal
torture but a garbage dump. Big difference from what people today think when you say Hell. Garbage dumps aren't eternal and no one gets tortured
there.
Perhaps they are discarded which fits the metaphor- maybe atheists get what they believe and cease to exist. But I do not believe God takes pleasure
in or sponsors eternal torture nor do I believe the Bible teaches it.
[edit on 2/17/2008 by Bigwhammy]
Well as a metaphor is was probably pretty apt at the time. I imagine it was on fire quite frequently back then. Why would we assume that it wasn’t?
I’m sure people in Jesus’ time then were smart enough to say, “Hey, the dump’s getting really high and stinky. Maybe we should burn it down a
bit!” We do the same thing today.
You don’t have to have much of imagination to picture “Hell/Gehenna” as it was – just go to your local dump and take a stroll. They’re
generally pretty disgusting; but not those fancy new dumps –some of them are really classy.
It seems to me that a simple, modern translation of Jesus’ words would be something like: “Ya’ know, if you don’t stop acting like a jerk
you’re going to end up in the dump over there.” Nothing really mystical or hard to understand about that. I think that’s why he put it that way
– it’s pretty hard to misinterpret what he’s trying to get across.
As regards to whether or not God really puts people in eternal torment; that’s a matter of faith.
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reply posted on 18-2-2008 @ 12:09 PM by Bigwhammy
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reply to post by passenger
I agree with everything you said about gehenna. I made those same points. But nothing about a dump fire is eternal. It cleanses. A refiners fire is a
common Biblical analogy as well.
Why would you have faith in eternal torment? seems kind of sick to me....
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reply posted on 18-2-2008 @ 12:28 PM by Astrobee
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jdposey you said:
The gift of eternal life is there, but their unbelief prevents them from accessing it.
Jdposey, who gives you the faith in order that you may receive it?
If your taking credit for having enough faith to receive eternal life, then you have every reason to brag that you figured this out on your own.
Jesus said (sorry don't know the verse right now) "You didn't choose Me, I chose you"
If you would be so kind as to go back to my original post and answer me if you could punish your own children in such a manner.
Revival is not going to come until the Church realizes it was deceived into believing a loving God could torment his own children forever and ever.
You will not win any debate quoting scripture backing up your claims either, I will find just as many quotes to counter you. That's why I use the
example about how parents punish their children.
The early church did not believe in eternal torment. No where is it mentioned in the old testament. If ET is true, wouldn't have God given us more
warning in the old testament?
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reply posted on 19-2-2008 @ 08:35 AM by jdposey
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reply to post by Astrobee
I am not quite understanding your thought process in regard to your post.
You stated in your original post:
If God is not a respector of persons, why would He choose some but not others?
If your answer is I chose to follow God, the others didn't so that is their fate (hell) well then you have reason to brag then because you
followed Him and they didn't but doesn't that contradict grace and what is written above?
_____________________________________________________________
My question to you is, are you implying that Jesus will save you, whether you agree or not, what some people refer to as the Gospel of
Inclusion or, Universalism? Everyone is saved, hence, everyone is a child of God?
_____________________________________________________________
As to your question: " How many parents here could torment their own children if they misbehaved? And tack forever on to that too. So if we can't
do it, how can God?"
_____________________________________________________________
Who said anything about God tormenting (forever) His own children? I surely didn't. Why should God's children fear eternal punishment when they have
received the assurance through Christ of eternal life?
_____________________________________________________________
As to your statement: " Jdposey, who gives you the faith in order that you may receive it?"
" If your taking credit for having enough faith to receive eternal life, then you have every reason to brag that you figured this out on your
own."
_____________________________________________________________
There again, where did I say that I have taken credit for my faith? Anyone who understands Grace will not boast, except in one thing: The Cross of
Christ. (Galatians 6:14) I am very much aware of Ephesians 2:8:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:.. understanding, that, not even Faith to believe is
of ourselves, our own making, but a gift from God. No man just ups and says, 'Today I will believe!"
As for Children of God, the New Testament is clear as to who these are, just as it is clear as to who the Children of the Devil are. With that
distinction being made clear, for anyone to assume that ALL are Children of God is just that, an assumption and, not scriptural.
[edit on 19-2-2008 by jdposey]
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reply posted on 19-2-2008 @ 09:01 AM by passenger
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Why would you have faith in eternal torment? seems kind of sick to me....
Well, personally I don’t believe in an eternal Hell. In fact I don’t particularly believe in a lot of the Bible.
But to set forth an argument for such I would submit the evidence present in the scripture themselves: If one examines the psychological profile of
the Old Testament God (a.k.a. Yahweh, Jehovah, El Shaddai, etc.) one can only come to the conclusion that He’s a psychopath. To wit, He is
malicious, capricious, arrogant, insensitive, violent, vengeful and irrational at times. In fact, He actually demands genocide on occasion. Based on
the testimony given to these attributes and actions, I would not find it difficult to believe that such a being would have problems with condemning
people to an eternity of torment. I admit that this does conflict with the evidence that early Judaism had no real concept of Hell – at least as we
would define it.
Conversely, Jesus spoke often of Hell and souls in torment there. This conflicts with our common image of Christ as compassionate, forgiving and
loving. Yet, ironically, He seems to have no real problem with the concept of Hell. Again, I acknowledge that there are fundamental differences
between our modern view of Hell, which was basically formulated in the Middle Ages, and what Jesus believed it to be.
I know this dichotomy between the Old and New Testament has been pointed out countless times before. Far better theologians have debated for ages on
this subject. They never really came to a consensus. I don’t have an answer for it either. But for my own sake, I’d sort of like to hope there
ain’t no Hell. I’d sleep better.
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reply posted on 19-2-2008 @ 09:21 AM by Astrobee
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My question to you is, are you implying that Jesus will save you, whether you agree or not, what some people refer to as the Gospel of Inclusion or,
Universalism? Everyone is saved, hence, everyone is a child of God?
Yes, that is exactly what I believe. Every man in his own time, when God wipes away every tear, when He becomes all in all.
(And I should have been more clear in my posts, I did not mean you jdposey with those questions, I meant anyone that believes in eternal torment)
I labored over this issue for a long time. I had a hard time comprehending how a small part of creation could exist in eternal bliss while the
majority of creation existed in pain, eternally seperated from God. How could the former and God Himself have any peace knowing there is so much
suffering going on, forever?
[edit on 19-2-2008 by Astrobee]
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reply posted on 19-2-2008 @ 09:33 AM by ATSGUY
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i just gotta say it is funny how ppl still think there is an actual hell and stuff, when in reality hell is of our own making. Reincarnation is real
and so is karma so just deal with it, when you die you go to the other side and just review your life, if you have been bad you say to yourself yea
ima go back as the race of the person i killed and see what he felt. That how it is until you break the karma and dont have to reincarnate anymore. Go
to Iraq and you will see hell, go to the countries with genocide and you will see hell. if there was a place of fire and brim stone it would sure be
better than anything we have on this planet...
my rant done!
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reply posted on 19-2-2008 @ 10:55 AM by jdposey
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reply to post by Astrobee
One thing that is evident about life, so it seems, is that history always repeats itself. I think Jesus gives us two great examples of that case with
the scripture below and prophesies that in the end, it will repeat itself just as was the case in Noah's day and just as was obvious in Lot's day.
The connection between the two is that, in each scenario, more were lost through destruction than the few, who were saved by grace.
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given
in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of
Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and
brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. (Luke 17:26-30)
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reply posted on 19-2-2008 @ 04:33 PM by Astrobee
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Yes, history does repeat itself.
I'd like to add something to your verse about In the days of Noah....yes, they met their doom and God destroyed the earth except for Noah and his
family...however....
...You do not mention what Jesus did when he descended into hades. He preached to the souls that were destroyed by the flood.
Why would He preach to them? To offer them salvation? I think so.
I can suggest a site to you or anyone that is interested in universal salvation. Try the forums on www.tentmaker.org, there are many there that can
articulate much better than I can.
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