Atheist Chat v1.1

reply to post by xpert11

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Honestly the way i see it, is his own misiterpretation of what is meant as the following verses seem to be more of an allegorical statement of wisdom showing the bounty availible to those who follow its teachings. just my thoughts

Hmm I will let Reverend SamuelTophatJack clear up this matter . If it was a reply to my question I had no way of knowing that was the case . I apologize for my curt reply if there has been a misunderstanding .

Cheers xpert11.

Wisdom, the principal attribute of the Almighty, has seven key aspects, or "pillars." "Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:" Proverbs 9:1.

There is something so important that it existed "before the works of old." "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was" Proverbs 8:22-23. (See also verses 24-30.)

The subject is, of course, wisdom. And, even by the rudimentary standards of the world, it can be seen wisdom is crucial, often a matter of life and death!

Foolishness is just lack of wisdom. Conversely we may say that wisdom is knowledge righteously and appropriately applied.

We all exercise good and bad judgments daily, but even our wisest decisions seem to fall short. Our best efforts may mitigate a problem but who has the ability to stop or prevent the problem?

Truly it can be said that the world is wise according to the laws and principles of man. But, I Corinthians 3:19, "the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness." This scripture indicates that the good examples of the wisdom of the world we have seen are, at best, damage control. For who has the perfect wisdom to prevent any or all of the evils of this present day?

We can all agree there is no shortage of wise acres, wise crackers, wise guys, wisenheimers, or sophomores (literally "wise morons"). But where are the "Solomons"?

A little detective work will help us to reveal the wisdom of God and the seven pillars. When we have found the seven pillars, we will have found the wisdom of God.

After the observation of the queen of the south on Solomon�s wisdom, Luke reports: "No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light" Luke 11:33. Luke is saying, when a man has found something that enhances his or other's stature or well-being, he uses it. It is a direct reference to applying the wisdom of Solomon mentioned in verse 31. Then notice that he records "a greater than Solomon is here."

It follows that, if a man has a lighted candle, that is, "Solomon's wisdom," and does not hide it "under a bushel," a man having the wisdom of God will not hide it "under a bushel" either. Therefore if we find another account of "a lighted candle," it may lead us to the answer of what are the seven pillars.

Another passage of "a lighted candle" does, in fact, exist. Matthew 5:15, "Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house."

What major Christian doctrine precedes this verse? THE BEATITUDES! Is this the wisdom of God? Then it must consist of seven pillars. But there are nine beatitudes, aren't there? Let's "count our many blessed's, name them one by one," from Matthew 5:3-12.

#1 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

#2 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

#3 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

#4 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

#5 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

#6 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

#7 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

#8 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

#9 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

This problem is easily resolved by noting the first seven beatitudes are "active," displaying what we must be. The last two beatitudes are passive. They reveal what will happen to us if we possess the seven "pillars." We will be "blessed" in spite of persecutions

[edit on 25-6-2008 by Reverend SamuelTophatJack]

To the atheist that said they aren't worried about the daevil or hell.

YouTube Link

reply to post by Reverend SamuelTophatJack

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So, doesn't wisdom need rational or logical thought? That's interesting. Because strangely enough, the almighty all powerful god, for some reason needs us to worship him. Why he needs that I don't know, it's not like it would get him anything considering he already knows everything and can do anything. Why he would want us all to sing hymns to him all day I'm not entirely sure.

That sounds more like a dictatorship like Stalin's or Mao regime. Don't believe anything else, or I'll kill you sort of regime. Actually, that sounds more like what the devil would do. Not a kind, loving God.

So if you don't mind, I'll believe what I think God is/isn't because it makes a lot more sense than what you propose. He gave us free will for a reason, presumably to believe what we want. Why being a really nice person but not believing in him gets you put in Hell along with Mass murderers like Hitler or Stalin or Mao I don't know, but it hardly makes sense.

So I think I'll believe in something else.

Reverend SamuelTophatJack the You Tube video you posted is no longer available . In the film entitled Lawrence of Arabia there is a scene where Lawrence proclaims that "nothing is written " after he rescues some guy that fell off his camel . I don't recall if the incident was an invention of the film makers or if it was something that Lawrence wrote about .

reply to post by Reverend SamuelTophatJack

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Dear Reverend,

Your sermon was very, very, very dull. It was also meaningless.

You are hereby defrocked.

Yours in Christ,

Astyanax I, Tophat Pope

[edit on 26-6-2008 by Astyanax]

reply to post by xpert11

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T.E. Lawrence, the author of Seven Pillars of Wisdom, was a British archaeologist, soldier and spy who helped foment the Arab revolt against the Ottoman Turks in 1914. The Ottomans, if you remember, were on the side of the Germans in World War I.

Seven Pillars of Wisdom, subtitled A Triumph, was the book he wrote about his experiences fighting in the desert alongside the nomadic Arabs, with whom he lived and whose way of life he loved.

He had earlier meant to use the the title for another book he had begun writing, but he never finished that one. It was a treatise about the seven great cities of the ancient Arab world. It's true that he took the quotation from the Book of Proverbs, but to him it was nothing more than an appropriate, fine-sounding book title.

Despite the failure of his campaign against the Ottomans, Lawrence became a popular figure in Britain, where he came to be known as 'Lawrence of Arabia'. This was the title of a 1962 David Lean film about him starring Peter O'Toole.

Lawrence was, incidentally, flagrantly homosexual. This comes through very strongly in his descriptions of his Arab companions in Seven Pillars of Wisdom, though, of course, nothing is made explicit. He was writing in 1922, and people just didn't talk about such things in print those days.

Oddly enough, another British traveller among the Bedouin, Wilfrid Thesiger, also seems to have been gay. Make what you will of that.

Lawrence sexuality is disputed by historians although such a minor issue in no way takes away from his accomplishments. Should evidence ever emerge that proves that Lawrence was gay beyond any reasonable doubt I so wonder how Christian fundamentalists would react .

Staying with in the context of the topic elements of western society have progressed far enough to accept gays and Athiests as just another part of society and the norm . There will probably always be people who spread prejudice(SP?) against Atheists , gays and people of other races e.t.c .

Because they are paranoid

First Doubts

Were you always an atheist, or were you one of those who was religious in youth, and only came to disbelieve in later life?

I've just made a post about my first doubts in this thread by Karlhungis. Incidentally, his OP question is an interesting one to ponder.

Anyone else remember just when and how they had their first 'doubts'?

reply to post by Astyanax

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well...i remember the very very very first time i started doubting in some way

6th grade social studies class, our book defined what was required to be a civilization

i was confused about why religion was included....

so i just raised my hand and attempted a discussion with my teacher...about a theoretical society with division of labor, a complex economic system that prevented poverty and hunger, cures for all disease, interstellar travel, etc

his only response was "but they don't have a religion"

...i more formally began doubting after my confirmation into the catholic church.
then my doubts became more solidified when i was in theology class actually talking more and more about the meat of the issue

i guess the spark of dissent was always there, but it took a lot to overcome the social pressures and the mindset i had been born into

by the time i had actually read the bible, i settled on agnosticism, but then i re-read it and other holy texts and decided i'd be a "buddhist"...which was basically a pansy way for me to get around the stigma of being an atheist
then i was in my friend's kitchen one day and just said "**** it, i'm really an atheist"

and that was that.

been an atheist since.

though, after learning a lot more about norse mythology, i do wish it were really
...too bad that there's no logical reason to believe in it.

Well hey there, you pointed me to this thread from my other one where i outed myself as a new atheist.

I was agnostic from about the age of 7 or 8. My parents tried to raise me as a christian but i got thrown out of sunday school for asking "difficult questions". So since then i read all about different religions and just decided that the logical thing would be to be agnostic.

However the more i've read and the more i study about science, the less i believe in the idea of a soul. So if we don't have a soul, by extension there probably isn't an afterlife, or a god looking after that soul.

So my first doubts were when i was about 8 when i became an agnostic, my atheist conversion was a few days ago

reply to post by Astyanax

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I think i always knew.
I went to religious schools both primary and secondary and just saw and heard the hypocrisy throughout my childhood.

I never got a straight answer to any question i posed about inconsistencies i came across and always thought the teachers/priests seemed rather drone like.
The two most common answers:

"the lord/god works in mysterious ways"

"it's all part of his plan"

ok...... that's an answer huh?

To be honest, that's still the most common i receive today, along with "god gave us free will"

tell that to the folks in Soddom and Gomorrah.....

It wasn't until i had left school i had the opportunity to do my own studying and research that i found most of what i'd read to be absolute rubbish.

Anyway, thought i'd drop by and say hi to fellow atheists.

In my case, I can't really remember. I imagine that it was a gradual thing. I was never religious to begin with. I remember back when I was a kid and at least once some kid told me that I was going to Hell because I wasn't a member of his particular branch of Christianity even worse was that I wasn't even even Christian at all!! I remember yelling back to him that I wasn't scared of his fairy tale. That I believe was my start. Over the years things solidified for me. Personally I have no problems with other people having Religious beliefs. Whatever floats your boat. Just don't try to convert me. Yes it's happened more times than I care to think about. I'm happy the way that I am.

reboot

new question:

with the American election days away, i was wondering how important my fellow atheists consider a candidate's religious convictions to be when deciding who to vote for.
i honestly couldn't give half a flying pig in most cases, but certain candidates (eg sarah palin) seem to have specific beliefs that seem directly dangerous to the people they should be representing.

your thoughts?

In my case, As long as the candidate doesn't make it a part of his/her agenda then I have no problems. I however have my misgivings when a candidate decides to make his/her religion a major part of how they plan on doing things.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

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Well providing they don't support ID , intolerance and discrimination I don't really care what religious beliefs a politician has . Having failed to gain office the Destiny Church in New Zealand is looking to gain influence via setting up its own small community in Auckland which I fear could ultimately lead to a sort of religious Apartheid in New Zealand . I explain my reasoning here .

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

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I consider a candidate's religious convictions to be very important.

The more convinced they are, the less I'm likely to vote for them.