Is America worth patriotism?

spheroid, well said. Unfortunately, we live in a world where many are judged by the few. Since, in theory, our leaders are working for the masses, it is easy for people from other nations to assume that everyone here (or there, or anywhere) are truly represented by the talking heads on TV and the leadership in our capitol.

I personally would like to see our leaders, great and small, actually following the will of the majority. Then we could be judged a bit more truthfully.

I think that while the United States of America is a nation like any other, it also carries the additional burden of representing an IDEAL. That ideal includes such concepts as freedom, liberty, equal justice for all, individual rights, and the promise that anyone can aspire to do anything. When these concepts were codified in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States, the US became the “standard bearer” for this ideal. As the standard bearer for an ideal, the US is expected to live up to all of the concepts in that ideal. This is, of course, impossible because an ideal represents a level of perfection which no person, group or nation can be expected to achieve.

Whether or not the US is deserving of the responsibility to carry this ideal is a discussion for another time. Whether or not the US should continue to even try to carry this burden is also worthy of a separate discussion. I, personally, am tired of my country being judged against an ideal. When you are judged against an ideal you are never good enough, never fair enough, never generous enough and all of your faults – even small ones – are equated with the greatest evils of history.

Understandable. Although you are using them to rally for the cause without restraint...calling for action but only acting with words. Not to be picking...but talk is cheap...the more of it, the cheaper it is.


Certainly that is only right and proper. Unfortunately, our recent history shows that we never know until it is too late...so I intend to show rather than tell.


I have struck out many times....in many lives and in many things....but never did I go down not swinging. And eventually all that swinging will blast my efforts out of the ball park. I don't worry about odds...or getting even. I just do what intend to do and say what I mean and mean what I say. And I will succeed at making a change because I am doing it for the right reasons and because my conscience is my guide.


Of course, that is YOUR personal opinion - you have no information that can qualify your assessment of my alleged 'lack of effort.' If I feel I cannot make a responsible choice because the evidence given is never sufficient or even diverse one from the other...then am I not being responsible for my own part by not blind-guessing or playing the shell-game? By the same token, I did not gripe or complain about any choice the people made in the president. I know it is probably the most hellish job there could be...almost doomed from the start and so my attitude is always to laud the positive and forgive the rest. Not to say that I don't see many imperfections that could be improved upon - but I don't criticize anyone that has of yet failed to do the same.



Well, a bit of investigation would have revealed to you that 'queen annie' is just my long-standing internet user name and it was a nickname from friends long before I even owned a computer. I elaborated upon the reasons why somewhere on ATS in a relevant thread. And so the banner in my sig is one I designed for the mock-up election here at ATS (in case you weren't aware that there is a scrimmage going on already on this forum - look in the the political forum).

The peace sign graphic that I posted here, yesterday, is not for the same purpose...it is for real. And note that my name is plainly and honestly declared without grandiose/whimsical titles of royalty or whatever. I am red white and blue deep down...and I inherited much of my loyalty to the American ideal from my father who was a true hero in WWII but only I knew truly how heroic he was because he was modest to a fault. Ultimately my greatest sense of duty is toward our soldiers, past and present...without them in the present time, we'd already have been ruined. We need to bring our Brave back home to a free land...to their families...there is much good they can do in the world...but no more killing should take place FOR ANY REASON.

THERE is absolutely NO reason in this WORLD for any nation to war upon another. There has not been since 1941 and there will never be. Peace does not come by force, fear, or oppression. It comes by acceptance and forgiveness. And empathy. Rare things in this world, but as I said, I intend to lead by example.

And I am the gal with the raw iron soul - Jim's wild child.

No the problem is that those who judge have not been judged nor have they experienced, either directly or empathetically, the same which those they judge have experienced.

How many presidents TRULY care about the hungry and homeless? Most of them (these days) were born into affluence and at $400,000 a year with all expenses and room and board, the president can't really understand what it is like for those who are not 'fortunate sons'. They sit more like a king in truth because they are FAR removed from the stratosphere of the American caste system. (yes there is caste system here and it is becoming catastrophic and that is what leads to revolution and bad things for countries as a whole)



There is ONE leader over the other leaders...and his primary responsibility and the reason for the oath is to CARRY out the LAW.
The masses work for the masses - that is the underlying beauty of free democracy. But when there are not enough jobs or too little pay it is hard for the masses to work for the masses.


There is a hierarchy established from the start for the US government...in good orderly direction we trust. The will of the majority will never be cohesive enough in the smaller details to make sense of your vision.

It would be nice to see the Chief of Staff care more about the constitution than the congressional opinion or lobbyists and financial diversions. It would be nice to see more attention paid to domestic issues rather than trying to run other countries while letting our own become a disgrace.


Do you mean judged as a nation by those of other nations? We are judged truthfully. We the people, remember? We are not anything but selfish oblivious overfed kids...how can we expect to be judged as anything else when there are still third world countries starving on a daily basis and our retail stores throw out cereal into the dumpsters by the pound because the expiration date says so? And even our own are starving....and so much food thrown away and mismanaged that we should be ashamed.

And that is just one point of judgment. If we don't like the assessment of those who see us from the outside...maybe we are too far gone inside a delusional fishbowl. It is our own self image that is not truthful...we do not see ourselves as we are because then we would have to give up many things that we think we NEED so that all people would need nothing....

There is nothing that cannot be achieved if one is willing to never give up.

Annie - may I refrain from calling you Madam President till the votes are counted? I think you mistook my comment on cheap words. I spoke in the manner that at this point, all words are cheap until backed by firm commitment. At this point, your generic approach, lacking firm resolve and pledges on specific issues means that I will withhold judgment as I wait to see if you are a diamond or zirconium.

Deciding so early in the race would be a failure in evaluating all the candidates. This is a common practice in America that I call the Celeb Factor. Too many decide on 'their' pick without really knowing where that person stands on the issues, and then when they find out, they try to rationalize away the defects because they don't want to appear foolish.

Yes, I use words to sway people from lethargy, from ignorance, from prejudice, from many things. But I am not seeking office. Effective use of our common language would have served many a purpose in elections past, but it will not be the deciding reason that I vote for someone. And perhaps at time my words are but cheap and tawdry baubles, but as I said, I'm not the one seeking votes.

The primary problem that I had was your lackluster approach to civics. It is seldom wise to start out as CEO of a large corporation, with zero experience in the business world. The sharks will eat you alive. But even that would not wiegh as heavy on me as your sudden conversion to political endeavor.

It is now fashionable to be a voice for change, considering how the Shrub has done so badly. Yet, our nations problems are longstanding, and ought to go back some years for anyone old enough to run for the office of President. To have not been involved at any level, IMO, shows a 'johnny-come-lately attitude that gives me pause. I have seen religious conversions that burned brightly at first, yet sputtered to a halt when the road got hard.

If you truly felt that you could not make an ethical choice between national candidates in the past, I can respect that. But you could have voted at least one vote for yourself as city alderman, town constable, dogcatcher, whatever. This would have been involvement. But to aspire to the highest office in the land in one fell swoop is to me wishing to become Cinderella. And I take the job much too serious for that.

And this is not to say that you could not persuade me to yet cast my lot in your camp. I am merely pointing out the obstacles you have before you.

Last, the Queen comment. Sorry, that was just one of my asides sniping at King George the Shrub. I meant no jest at your expense and ask your indulgence on my whimsy.

I admire your idealism but I don't think we are to that point yet. The world has not changed THAT MUCH since 1941. There are still plenty of people in the world who would be delighted to kill you where you stand regardless of how much forgiveness and empathy you offer them. The fact that you or I see no reason for any nation to make war upon another does not mean everyone else sees the world as we do.

I apologize, I was not absolutely clear in my [rather short, blunt] discussion. It was romanticized, I mean, by your use of language. In your discussion you use such phrases as:
"You, America, have not lived up to the treaties and agreements that you made with Native Americans."
[An address to the entire country.]
"now your children are unwilling"
['Children' of a nation.]
"What worth is your patriotism, if it is built on lies"
Etc.

It was more a critique of your language than anything -- And I admit I was not clear with this, so I apologize. However, when I think of a serious discussion and mature debate, I do not think of an argument that a beatnick might spout out in some coffee-house. Furthermore:
Beginning with 'Native Americans' was a bit loosely-tied, and invalid.
And many of the concerns mentioned in your post are copy-paste, whether you recognize this or not, of the general media and nay-sayers.

In hindsight -- You don't seem to be intentionally aggrivating anyone here. But your argument is not immediately clear, its presentation is relatively flawed, and I admit I was perhaps in a bad state-of-mind. [Being quite early when I read this.]

However, unfortunate as it is, the 'anti-American' thought seems to have come true, with the thread turning largely into a 'U.S.A, Good of Bad?' discussion:
"America is just a place where people are free to take advantage of thier fellow man. "
"I think America has at times shown great promise"
"Trying to repair collapsing empires is an effort in futility. The best thing we can do is let is collapse(or help it along) "

So forth.

It's a generalized argument which, because of the nature of ATS, turns into another 'Good, Bad?' debate, and was represented in a way which only reinforces this, with [understandably] poor evidence.

I did not mean to be crude, though I apologize for initially appearing this way.
I'd ask that you restate your original message, refine it, and begin a new post. I can understand what you're getting at, but too much inane 'bitching' has spawned in its wake to do much good now.

_______________________________________________________________
Iblis, there is no romance here. There is need for dialog, for correction of America's course. Sadly, we must first contend with those who view progress, or even the desire for progress, as something to be avoided because they feel it undermines their fragile sense of self worth.

A statement: I am not bashing America. I am pointing out the faults as I see them, and asking for ways that you, my fellow citizens, can help in rectifying these . If it seems to be bashing, then does the problem not demand more attention than ranting at me because I point to a problem. When has shooting the messenger ever solved a single problem?

Iblis, you are right that I speak in a somewhat old style, my word phrases sounding out of place in the hustle and bustle of the modern world. And there is no need for apology. You have surely seen that I can weather worse.

I am unsure how I could ask more forthrightly (see, I can't help myself) for people to look for ways to solve our image problem. And to exhort them to remember that humans generally judge on past behavior, and not on tomorrows promise.

If just those who have read this thread would actively seek to participate in e-mailing, joining reform groups, whatever, it would be a start in the right direction. And each person they influenced could do the same.

But it is not easy to see that each of us has a duty to find that which we can improve, and then work at making a change. We've become a nation of observers. Our weekends are too sacred to waste on our nation's future, our dollar to precious to forgo work for a day of protesting. But this is our children's destiny that we are allowing to slide away.

I fear the day will come when some of us look back and regret that we failed to do more.

I speak here to stir men's souls to seek a better life, to salvage the decency that is our national dowry. The internet gives each of us a greater reach with ideas than ever before in history. And it saddens me that the number one talked about subject in the cyberspace is Paris Hilton. (PC Magazine)

Surely out of so many bright people ideas could emerge to implement constructive change to our way of life. Surely we should see that if we want to become in fact, the 'good guys' we desire to be seen as, we must do something to make that a reality.

There is a long conspiracy afoot to divide and alienate us one from the other. This benefits those with power and wealth. And it is all the more insidious because it requires no planning, no major secrets, no cloak and dagger. All that is needed is to keep us in bondage is words.

Words that are whispered over the ether that there is nothing we can do to change the world, that we are so well off it could not be better, that our leadership is more intelligent than the masses. We are brainwashed from cradle to grave.

We hired those people to do a job, and when they fail we need to fire them, with penalties for poor performance. No excuses. They said they were the best men/women for the job, and if the will of the people is not served, they are not doing that job.

There is no other group of workers on the planet that can give themselves a pay raise while the company goes bankrupt. No other job where at least some measure of performance is not reflected in job security. No other job that requires so little integrity.

We need sweeping changes. We need fresh ideas. And we need people willing to put forth the effort to make those new ideas reality. JFK said it best, though modern politicians have twisted it to mean "let me line my pockets", when he said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

We can do a lot if we only try.

Is America worth patriotism? Yes. Someone earlier mentioned the difficulties of living up to an ideal. That ideal, and the effort that generations before us made to live up to it is what has made America great in the past, and will make America great again in the future, "IF" we engage our fellow citizens in honest and open debate about the issues that hurt America.

I am a Native American, but an AMERICAN 1st! I wish more of my fellow natives felt the way I do, instead of expecting handouts from the gov't. I'm grateful for the medical and dental. Thank you. Soon I will have my own benefits and no longer need tribal ones. I could continue to drain your tax dollars, but I'm for personal responsibility. There are new tribes out there seeking recognition. Some are legitimate like the 5 from Virginia the other day that the House passed recognition for, but there are others that were never tribes to begin with who are trying to get federal recognition just to scam the government and take advantage of our nations collective guilt. Be on the watch out for them.

Farm subsidies in the Farm Bill never help out the small family farm, but only hurt, because the big corporate farms get the vast majority of those subsidies and then have unfair competition driving out the small farms, who then foreclose, and the corporate farms gobble them up from the banks auctions. Tribes work the same way. Always giving money to the tribes is actually hurting them, not helping. In reality it imparts upon them a lifestyle of welfare dependence upon the state, that they couldn't otherwise function without.

Education in America is in a similar crisis. The failure of education is that it's "state run education". Imagine how screwed up religion would be if it was state run. No child left behind, while its intentions may have been good, ended up hurting. Separation of school and state would improve things. I've been told that Texas takes extra measures upon themselves outside of gov't requirements to see that their kids get good education. I don't know the specifics, but am interested. Property taxes is what pays for schools. I would rather not have to pay property taxes, and use that money to put my kids in the school of my choice. The free market can always provide a service better than the gov't, (except things like national defense of course).

To paraphrase Ron Paul, "We have to decide what the role of government ought to be. If you expect the government to take care of you from cradle to grave", then no, we can't end the welfare state we live in.

The hope that we may yet "secure for ourselves and our posterity" the chance to fix these problems before we forever lose the United States of America to the North American Union is worth fighting for. Only through an informed, educated, and motivated citizenry will we be able to throw off the chains of the Rothschilds and Rockefellers control over our centralized banking and graduated income tax, both from the communist manifesto. It is from THIS issue, the corrupt Federal Reserve system, that is the cause of all other issues we face as a nation today.

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson

"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws." - Mayer Amschel Rothschild

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

AMERICA: FREEDOM TO FASCISISM

Kelldor, excellent points. This is the type of reasoned response aimed at what needs to be fixed in America that needs to be discussed. We have too many people that feel defeated because the problems seem overwhelming. But if enough of get down to fighting to repair the areas that need repairing, we can make a big difference.

Perhaps some of these concerns should be sent to all the political candidates on state and national levels to get their reactions. We need to know where they stand and force them to make real pledges, on the record, stating that this will be their job, and if they fail they will resign.

As to the "handout' to any group, I have always felt that this was a bad idea. It lowers self worth. It is better to subsidize jobs, than give away lower self esteem. I drew fire for what I termed the Native American Question earlier in this thread. I never meant to even hint that what I was describing should be any form of a 'something for nothing' deal. I wanted America to show the world that it will live up to it's word by settling age old disputes that only sow discontent in our nation.

I have never drawn one cent of tribal money, and have no intention to. I worked and paid to Social Security for 40 some years. I now live on that retirement, and want nothing that I have not earned. But at the same time, settling age old land disputes, and treaty settlements with indiginus people is lawful when there is documentation that supports it. We will never have respect until we have self respect, and as long as we try to cheat our way out of everything, that will not happen.

But this was only one example. We need to be honor bound in everything we let our leaders do. And in all of our dealings be open and aboveboard. By being fair with all men, and with all nations, we can stop the increasing distrust of our own citizens, and garner the respect of the world.We need to practice what we preach to the rest of the world.

I am glad that you spoke here. I too am an American first and my ethnicity is personal. I want what will make this nation the great land it once was. Any steps we take towards that goal are worthwhile.

america is a democracy...if working properly, it is a reflection of it's people. and to be honest, I think overall, it is a reflection of it's people. not all of them, but a large enough majority to pull us in the directions we go. there's is something wrong when the politicians can gain the overwhelming support of this group or that, by just saying a few words about a single issue. I'm against abortion....I'm for pro-choice....I will raise the minimum wage....ect. ect. ect...

single issues held as importance to single individuals...and the single issues seem to pull the vote. what this tells me is that for the most part, people are looking out for number one....they don't care if their pet issue is good for the country....all that matters if that it's good for them...their bank account, or whatever.

well getting from where we are, to where we should be if we want to gain the respect back from other countries is gonna require some self sacrifice on our part....it's gonna be painful....and show me one politician out there willing to say this...and I'll show you one that is gonna lose the election big time...
I remember being taught lessons in gradeschool that were basically lessons in civic and social responsiblitity. guess they don't teach them anymore?

you can be patriotic and wave your flags all you want. but, alot of responsiblity comes with that freedom, and well, if people can't take on that responsibility, well...the end result is that the freedom is lost.

Thx NGC! Yes, the problems do seem overwhelming, and this kicks in the "fight or flight" mechanism. I choose to FIGHT! I have been e-mailing and faxing senators almost daily. Right Now NumbersUSA could use everyones help to fight Amnesty for illegals. Without more support, it will pass tomorrow. From there you can fax your senators, and let them know where you stand.

Also, If the North American Union/SPPI thing is really ticking you off, you can go to the John Birch Society and from there fax your senators and reps also.

Often I will also just google my senators name with the word "contact" and and e-mail them from their own web site, so I can get a response. I am not happy with the responses I have received from those in D.C. though. I think we need to fire the entire federal government, honestly. I think there is a legal way to do it, which I posted on in this thread.

There's things we can do though. I'll keep trying, and I urge you all to do the same too. Good luck, gonna go watch Ron Paul kick butt in the debate!

I have followed your advice and investigated the sites you showed links to, Kelldor. I also posted on the thread 'Time for Succession" right under you.

It seems that trying to combat the American Creeping Menace of the Government taking away our liberties has gotten this thread relegated to the nether regions of this site.

Perhaps it was my failure to mention something stupid like reptilians and the Masons enough that got this removed from the limelight.

I fear that despite the fact that my posts generate a lot of response, I have stepped on toes and this is my return.

Because we are now discoursing in a vacuum, there will not be much input of new ideas. It seems that some members here are using the tactics more in line with big brother._javascript:icon('')
_javascript:icon('') may be the message.

Hope you find this thread, and that others will look for it as well. If I am not mistaken, we will now be invisible to the unregistered visitors, and the common browsers.

Sorry for the icons. I messed up-please ignore. I was trying to say that I was feeling like I was being shut up. *Sigh* I'm not good with computers.

Actually, just for the record, we are not a democracy. We're a Republic. A republic that is appointed by the citizens of the states that make it up, or so we're led to believe. It's my opinion that recently, there's been a shift from election by popular vote to election by corporate interests, as can be evidenced by the overwhelming numbers of corporations giving "political contributions" to the candidates for their campaign funds. This reeks of political corruption, and is just one more linchpin in the death of our way of governance.

The questions that are left to ask are: What do we do about it? How can we make this situation right? How can WE, as a People, fix it? These are the questions with which I'll leave you.

TheBorg

NGC2736 and everybody else. I am sorry for my actions. I attacked the person instead of the idea. Its wrong I know its wrong but I did it anyway. I am sorry and in the future I will do better. I will also remember that in the future I will step away from the keyboard when I'm having a bad day.

Now onto the issue. First I don't think getting moved to BTS has to be death for this thread. We just have to make sure to keep the flags and the content going. If you discuss it they will come..

Angry American, thank you Sir. And to all who have posted and read here, I too wish to extend my apologies for harsh words. As AA and I have said in private, we are passionate on this subject, but that is no excuse to be less than civil. I too will give my best effort to not step across that line.

And on the subject of passion for our nation: how can we impart that to others? Our Founding Fathers had enough passion to go to war, to risk life and limb, to endanger all they had worked so hard to achieve, for the ideal of freedom. Why is it so hard today for these same goals to stir the souls of the masses?

Any student of American history knows that the debates involving our separation from the crown and our path towards liberty, were stormy and often heated. These were men of deep feelings for their desire to live free or die. Why now do most only pay lip service to these ideals?

While I may have crossed swords here with others, and been in error for doing so, it was for them and me a matter of our great love for what was, and is, and will be, our nation. To be lukewarm in the love of freedom is not a virtue, at least in my opinion.

I am proud to call Angry American my friend. The same too for Blaine. We may have argued, but it was because we cared too much, and that is so much better than not caring at all. Not really caring what road to damnation our country was on is why America is where it is today.

And yes Angry American, this thread has merit and purpose if it awakens even a few from the stupor that now grips our politics. (And I always wanted a friend named Angry, it somehow seems refreshing.) Let us hope many will come to contribute here.

Ideas must be examined, solutions found, and action taken.

Call me whatever you wish - whenever. I am what I am regardless of when or how titled.



Well, I am sure you can understand that I have not chosen to campaign within the ATS forum; I have a website that I am working on in order to detail things; which will both demonstrate firm resolve as well as detail what I believe and upon what principles I stand.



No one is asking you to decide. But what kind of candidate doesn't take any viable opportunity to interject an unadorned 'Vote for me, (insert name here).' ?



No doubt. With the ambivalence and non-decisive sorts of things we are given during the race, what can we do? No one says, REALLY, what they stand for or such....by the time it gets to that point, all their stances are determined, in full, by who/which special interest/lobbyists to which they are in debt for their overinflated campaigning trail.



I am. I simply answered your call to action....not because you called...my decision had already been made. It just so happens that your post popped up the next day or so.


Well, if you want luster and sparkles and star shine...I'll send you my high school baton-twirler costume.



There is no need for anything concerned with ME to weigh heavily on YOU. I am the one seeking office, remember? My shoulders are the ones prepared to bear a heavy burden.

However, I am not a politician...do not seek a political career...but I have been a citizen all my life. I have more experience and knowledge of many things that most politicians never consider but that the majority of the population deal with day in and day out, without much concern from their so-called representatives.

I seek to represent the people...serve the people...I could care less about what the politicians think or do or what they think is the way to go. Their track record is dwindling by the year.

What is that old wise saying? That it is foolish to try to solve an issue with the same old ineffective methods which have failed in the past. I am doing things a different way...a way which is very ancient, tried, and true; however it is one that the modern world will see as fresh and untried....because in most people's memories, it is.



Why? The government of my town is not suffering in the same fashion as the nation, in general. And for the first decade of my adult life I was raising a family and working 3 to 4 12 hour shifts as an RN at my local hospital. I didn't have time. Still, I learned a lot and was involved in ways you cannot imagine.



But you are not the one running for office, remember? And if the shoe fits...it fits..whether glass or leather. I have worn more shoes and also walked long ways without anything on my feet....let the people decide who fits.


I see no obstacles in my path...but thanks for the concern.


No problem. Better to be a queen seeking to serve the public rather than a politician seeking to sit as sovereign.

No problems...only solutions!