my first argument to support this statement is the fact that none of the books of the bible even claim to be the word of god. they are title 'The gospel according to ????'.

Who is to say that the authors of these books are not corrupt people perpetuating a lie?

[edit on 8-12-2005 by Conspiracy Theorist]

actually the first book is genesis,the 2nd is exodus, the leviticus, then numbers

Unless you are one of those very few who believe that the Bible is a book about automotive mechanics for GM sports wagons made between the years 1962 and 1969, its pretty obvious to any casual reader of the Bible what it claims to be.



There are 62 books of the Bible that do not begin with the title 'The Gospel According To...'



Who is to say that the authors of these books are corrupt people perpetuating a lie?

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By the age of five i knew more about sex than i care to divulge. Myfather grew drugs out back and was a promenant member of the local pagan motor cycle gang. This was 1976 living in collings Lakes New Jersey.

I remember running to the neighbors house in the middle of the night at five years old with little more than a stake knife in my hand fearful that my dad was going to kill us all after cutting all the power to the House and leaving my Mother brother and sister terrified inside while he hid out side in the dark.

maybe i can tell you about the witchcraft he was involved in, or perhaps the magic mushrooms.

Or maybe we can talk about the pool orgies etc.
But it doesn't end there

lets fast forward seven years at which time I was a screwed up 12 year old with absolutely nothing to live for but me. I hate to even think about who or rather what I was back then- thankfully God has too!

sparing you all the gory details of my former life much of which is unspeakable( I did type it just now but I could not let it stay)

I remember crying out to God for hope at 12. The answer would come a long 2 years later at the age of 14 when some one mentioned the name Jesus to me and something happened. I'd heard that name before I knew who he was or so I thought. But this time was different, a light had come on and it was almost as if I could here Jesus say (not audable) "Follow me."
And so I did I set out on a long Journey One which I am still on today. Along and hard road to recovery one which I will not ever finish this side of eternity. However, I believe as he has said even as that great poem "footprints" states that he will never leave me.

Now like I've said I can't explain it. I can't reason it out to you or give you proof. but I know that He has changed me and continues to do so. I am nothing and would be either a rapist child molestor or dead by now if he had not interviened in my pathetic life 20 years ago. Oh did I mention the time he spared me from nearly having my right hand riped off by a large German Shepard. or the 2 nearly fatal car accidents and one motor cycle accident which left me with a 6 break compoud fracture of my right leg! I remember that day- the last thing I saw be fore my vision be came temporarily impaired was ABS on the front of an on coming car!

I don't want you to get the impression that life became a bowel of cherries after accepting Jesus as my saviour, in many ways it worsened. following Jesus isn't for the weak or th cowardly because many times you have to stand against a majority even if the cost is too great.

One thing I do know noone can accept Jesus after reading the Bible or by research. Only the Holy Ghost can open a persons heart. Only the Holy Ghost can invite someone to follow Jesus. The rest are left to the futile attempts to discredit Jesus.

Let me leave you with this question: Ever wonder why so many atheist are so concerned with debunking Jesus more than any other Historical figure?

How do you come to this conclusion?

"I am nothing and would be either a rapist child molestor or dead by now if he had not interviened in my pathetic life 20 years ago."

Just curious.

It is my belief that the traditional bible that we use today is flawed, but not wrong.

Man did in fact write much of it. I did at one point think that maybe Jesus didn't exist. I now think that he did and that many of the stories have been exaggerated. Mainly, my reasons are similar to Graystars - you just know it.

We can prove that the King James bible is flawed, but we cannot prove that it is wrong. Man messes up things - ALL men do. However, there is truth in there. Sure some of the truth is hidden and not included in the bible, but it can still be found.

People need to understand that we cannot understand it. All too often we dismiss that which we don't understand.

Most of the books of the bible are not only someones experience, but someone else's interpretation of that experience. The peom about Jack and Jill could become confusing if it passed through enough conversations, but they still got a pail of water and a couple of bruises.

SOMETHING is there, but too many interpretations of it has caused confusion. Don't interpret it, just know that it is.

Man wrote every religious book in existence, if he didn't we wouldn't have them.

And while the Bible or any holy book for that matter isn't the exact word of God, he didn't dictate while someone wrote, all the holy books in existence are divinely inspired. God inspired man to write these tales to reach out and touch his fellow man's spirit.

The problem only arised with these Holy books, when Man again decided that individual interpretation wasn't good enough and tried to enforced what should be personal to the masses.

Religion and God is a personal issue and we will each see and know God in our own ways. Religious books are only for guidance and not something to be taken as complete truth and interpreted literally.

Hmm, sounds like you are referring to the Gospels not being the "Direct Word of God" and not the Bible. There's a difference, of course. The Gospels are a number of people's interpretation of the Word of God that have been interpreted, translated, reinterpreted, modified, etc. over the past almost two thousand years.

I'm glad to hear that hope rescued you, but the answer to the question you ask should be obvious. Yours is the dominant religion in the west, and is intrusive in the lives of those who don't share it.

If Christians just kept their religion private, few would care about whether or not there was a historical Jesus, or who he was. But they don't.

Blue laws are still on the books, evangelicals keep trying to sneak prayer and religion into the public schools and plaster the 10 commandments all over public buildings. Drugs are illegal for religious reasons, as is prostitution, gambling, etc. Christians try to pass laws to regulate what adults do in their bedrooms, or to limit the legal rights of nontraditional relationships.

Not to mention that the US is at war right now probably because of Bush's religious delusions.

i do agree with spam ......many people are to quik to openly force there religious beliefs on you ....you should keep them private.....
i am not a christian and do not claim any other religious sect only the love of god.....

i think however that the ten comandments are a great thing ...you should live your life by them...maybe we should call them the ten suggestions to live your life by.......as for as drugs ,gambaling, and prostitution ..these are things that i believe are moraly degrading.......and by openly inviting these things into a society your are unleashing an evil far greater than the devil or any other evil religious deity........

drug experimenting in private with your friends is ok to a degree but what happens when the streets are even more litterd with crackheads and herion addicts then it already is......i live 20 mins. from dc and about 45 min. from baltimore and i can tell you first hand that its not a pretty site....and would only get worse by making this stuff legal...read a history book many countries have been destoyed thru the use of drugs....as far as prostitution..i dont want to actually pay for the act of sex....it has already been demoralised so bad that it has no meaning anymore.......and gambling althuogh the lesser of the 3 evils is not that bad it still should not be everywhere......

sometimes you need to look past what you personlly want and think about whats good for the whole.....yes none of this is black and white and i do not agree with our gov. on any of these issues becuz there not looking at these issues in whats good for us but whats good for there pocket....and as far as busch .........i dont believe hes a real christian or a good human being at all..........................let us not forget what happend to ROME

Your argument is basically sound with the exception of a few of the books that claim to quote god's words.

2 Timothy 3:16 is often used to "prove" that the Bible is god's word, but this is a fallacious argument on several counts. Here's the KJV translation:

All scripture {is} given by inspiration of God, and {is} profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The first count is that "given by inspiration of God" does not mean "written by god". To say a work is inspired means only that the writer had god in mind. The religion section of a library is filled with such inspired works, yet no-one considers these to be god's word, nor are they considered inerrant even by the authors themselves.

The second count is that Paul's letter to Timothy was not considered scripture by either Paul or Timothy. Paul was referring to established scriptures, not his own personal letters, nor works that would come later on. Worse, we don't know what Paul and Timothy would have considered scripture! We can guess it would have included the Law and the Prophets, but it likely included other noncanonical works such as the books of Enoch, since Paul borrows imagery from them in some of his writings. They might have even considered Essene or gnostic writings as scripture. It's an incredible leap of illogic to say that Paul was referring to what would become "the Bible" hundreds of years after his death, or even worse, that he was referring to the KJV (incredibly, some people actually believe that!).

The third count is that Paul merely states that such scriptures are useful. He does not claim they are without error. Something can be false and still be useful, such as a claim that some ethic was given by god himself. It may be false, yet it still keeps the sheep in line.

Next, notice that the word "is" was inserted by the writers of the KJV. Notice also the part I put in bold. The meaning of the passage rests on the meaning of the word "theopneustos", which is translated in the KJV as "given by inspiration of god". The problem is, "theopneustos" is an obscure word and no-one knows for certain what it means. The passage could mean any of the following:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of god..." {KJV}
"Every scripture inspired of god..." {ASV}
"All scripture that inspires the reader of god..." {Biblico-Theological Lexicon of New Testament Greek, 3rd edition}

These have drastically different meanings. The third is the scholarly perspective based on researching how the passage was rendered in the Arabic and Ethiopian translations, as well as through greek linguistic analysis.

To claim that 2 Timothy 3:16 somehow proves that the Bible is god's word, is absurdly rediculous.

I always find it interesting how so many people that have been dealt the crappiest cards in life, or just simply made the wrong choices punching and scratching there way to the bottom, are usually the ones who eventually become so involved with god. It seems like every time i meet someone who is border line "freaky" on god, i'm also soon to learn that they have had a pretty rough life. I myself am pretty nuetral on the subject, i'm pretty confident that we should all be left alone to find our own light in life whatever or whoever that may be. for some it's jesus that kicks there joy button, and for others its all in science and numbers. but whatever happens in the brain when we are down there on the bottom with our hands in the muck all broken and lost seems to trigger the path to christ more than anything, but i think that may be more about a primal urge to save ones sanity, and somehow be forgiven than anything else. I mean all we are all really looking for is love and peace of mind, and for those on the bottom, the bible seems to help. Not such a bad thing i guess.

Since this is the Conspiracy in religion forum, the topic needs to be discussed in terms of the conspiracy angle. There is a Relgion forum that has no conspiracy restrictions, for religious disucssions, so lets try to keep the tack torwards the conspiracy angle here.

Who would've presented something that is not the word of god as his word, and how would they go about convincing people, and how would they use it to helpthemslves?

Go read #10 again. The words improperly translated as "manservant" and "maidservant" actually mean "slave" and "concubine".



Name some, and I'll be happy to name some destroyed by religion. Drug usage has been a part of almost all cultures we know of in history, and has only recently (by historical standards) been criminalized. Alcohol is a drug that's much worse than many illegal drugs, yet somehow society thrives in spite of it being legal.



I'm not personally very interested in drugs, prostitution, gambling, or gay marriage, I'm simply pointing out that these laws exist for historical religious reasons. If you want to debate whether or not they are a good idea in spite of religion, that's a subject for another thread.

I have few books by Dr. Edmond Bordeaux Szekely, who translated information on the Essenes from manuscripts in the Library of the Vatican, the Library of the Hapsburgs in Vienna and the Library of the British Museum starting in 1927. No bible mention the Ancient Essenes.. 200 BC to 67 AD, even if Jesus was part of that communiity. The discovery of the dead sea scrolls (Over 900 scrolls and fragments) , one of the most important sources of information about the Essenes, were discovered by a group of Bedouins in 1947 at Qumran. Manuscripts of every book of the Old Testament, The book of Enoch etc.. handwrited by Essene scribes... NONE of all that in the bible.. I won't mention all other books i have like Jesus lived in india or the early age of jesus in the Urantia books but the essenes part , there's a reason its not in the bible but in the vatican library.. and i think that could be one real conspiracy. Read the essenes story, it has nothing to do with the mark of the beast or the Opus Dei.. Its more of a guide on how to live in harmony with our universe..

actually number 10 is about the sabath day and keeping it holy........

this ment no work.....and even if your translation is right thatt just means they are just as important and should partake in the sabbath.......also thru out the old text he says many time to remember what the egyptians did to you and do not do it to others.....i believe according to jewish law that there servants were probably treated fair.....i mean are we all not servants do we not work for some one else in some fashion....

I’m done lurking and decided it’s time to put my 2 cents in. A little background on me first so some of you might know where I am coming from. I went to Catholic school for 13 years, so I can really only talk from what I understand, a bad Catholic’s perspective.

Here is my issue with all these Bible thumpers saying it is the direct word. It isn’t, at least not in a literal, word for word sense. Do I believe these books have divine inspiration? Yes. However I don’t understand how so many people can claim it is the end all be all. My understanding of how the Bible came to be is, the Catholic Church decided what books should go in, and what books should be hidden and forgotten forever. Not to mention, if I remember my church history correctly, when the Bible was put together was one of the most corrupt times in the history of the Catholic Church. So the Popes in charge of putting this good book together weren’t exactly the most upright holy men.

For those that are familiar with the Bible, we know how Jesus liked to teach, thru stories. And, in my opinion, that is how the Bible should be taken, as a teaching story. The reader takes the key points, love thy neighbor, be good to your fellow man, etc. and in that you will help find your path to God. Am I wrong in this? Knowing my luck probably. Am I going to Hell for this belief? I’ll find out in a few years, but I sure hope not. But I just find it hard to believe we are supposed to follow a book, verbatim, that has gone through so many translations and so many different hands that it probably isn’t the same book it was 1000 years ago.

My thought for the day: The path to God is paved in the way you live your life. It is in what you do and how you do it. Not what you read and how well you follow it

PS – Sorry if I went off the original subject but I thought this kinda fit well in here.

Based on my prior life stlye none of which i will ever spell out- sorry!

I think your confusing those who have a real relationship with Jesus and those who use there faith for political gain

You asked why people want to debunk Jesus, and I answered it. How is that considered confusion about a "relationship" you have with Jesus?

I did not claim that all Christians are incapable of separating religion and politics, although my limited experience does suggest most are.